Editing Rust

==Notes==
These are various notes culled from threads on the Hotrodders Bulletin Board and related links. Needs to be organized and verified.

===Media blasting rust===
*Sand is not recommended for media blasting panels. It acts like little hammers, warping panels with by compressive forces (analagous to hail). Use softer media (list examples).
Can be done, but must be cautious. Use a small sandblaster, or a sandblaster set on low (expand on this: distance, angle, etc.).
*Can sandblasting "increase" rust? Or, if the rust is removed and the metal is sealed, shouldn't it be eliminated? Some thoughts on this are:
**Although sandblasting may appear to have removed all the rust to the naked eye, it hasn't really done so.
**It's caused by water in the air compressor line, as sand will harbor some moisture. Also, compressed air contains moisture. And, sand has salt in it. A moisture trap in the line should solve the problem with the water in the air line.
*Many panels have seams, hems, and bends that are inaccessible by blasting, and hold moisture and rust.
*Body panels can be sand blasted. However, it must be done carefully (explain). The pressure of the sand hitting the body panels causes warpage.
*One option is to use chemical paint stripper, then use a sandblaster to lightly "dust" the remaining rust.
*Media blasting can remove good metal from body panels too. Also, used media can have metal particles left in the media.
*Soda blasting can remove light rust, and won't warp panels.
*[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sugar_sand Sugar sand] is finer and less-damaging than regular sand.
*For cleaning in seams, a spot blaster is recommended.

===The fiberglass resin patch trick===
One technique that has been recommended is to grind/clean the rust, tape the underside of the panel to be patched, and then fill the holes with fiberglass resin, then paint and undercoat. This trick is not a good idea -- when the body flexes, there will be cracks in the fiberglass pieces.

===Examining rust===
After cleaning off rust of floor pans, wait until it's dark, and put a trouble light under your car. Pinholes in the sheet metal will show up very well in such a situation.

===Patch panels===
Butt weld or lap weld?

===Penny trick for filling holes===
Grind down all the paint and rust from around the hole. Clamp a piece of copper to the other side. Then, fill in the hole with a MIG welder. When done, unclamp the copper -- it won't stick to the panel.

===Removing rust from chrome===
Use a mag wheel polish.


===Electrolysis===
Removing rust with electrolysis -- research this.


===Undercoatings===
Rubberized undercoatings?

*There are many different products and approaches for handling rust.
*Rust encapsulators are common in the hotrodding industry. Some people think that they won't get rid of a problem, and may make it worse. Oftentimes its is how you apply and prepare it.
*A common thought is that minor surface rust of body panels is treatable, but everything else must be cut out and replaced with new metal. However, this is not always true. But some seriously bad rust you will have too replace.

===Plasma spray welding===
With plasma spray welding, metal wire is converted to sprayable form, and used to repair rust holes, fill panel joints, and blend patch panels. One example is the machine sold by [http://www.rustbustersllc.com Rustbusters].


===Surface rust===
Just sand with a DA, apply rust neutralizer, clean thoroughly, and prime.

===Rust pitting===
After removing all surface rust, treat with metal prep, wash, dry, sand, prime, fill the pits with polyester putty, then smooth and prime again.

Or, repeatedly prime with a high build primer and block sand. You may have to prime/block several times to get the pitted area up to the same level as the surface around it.

*To remove surface rust, use naval jelly and steel wool.
#Work in small areas, not larger than a square foot.
#Apply jelly with 000 steel wool, rub it in, and allow it to set for a couple of minutes. Don't let it dry.
#Rub again with steel wool. Repeat a few times, and then clean the area. Dry it immediately.

*To convert/neutralize rust
# A rust converter/neutralizer containing phospheric acid or another type of acid shold be used
# Be careful of getting this stuff on your concrete floor as it will bubble and decompose it
# Follow the instructions on the bottle when you are done there should be a fine coating on the metal which will help prevent further rust from developing
# This stuff is hard on paintbrushes(eats away the brisles) and you must be very careful of your eyes. Also it will ruin paint so again use caution.

===Removing rust===
*Start with as low as 36 grit, and finish with about 220.
*Scotch-brite pads and Comet/Ajax.
*3M clean-n-strip disc?
*"silver" POR-15? Has a filler in it for minor imperfections?

*Some people mentioned that professional body shops don't use POR-15 or similar rust "encapsulators" because:
**They would have to re-do too much of their work.
**Rust prevention products are primarily advertised in hobbyist mags, not in periodicals read by professionals in the paint and body industry.
**The lack of rust preventive products in non-hobbyist industries does appear suspect. For example, why don't ships at sea use POR-15?
**The major paint manufacturers like Sherwin Williams, PPG, and DuPont don't produce a POR-15 like product. This is thought to be because they couldn't possibly warranty such a product.
**The fact that POR-15 is not used by manufacturers is also important.

===Chemical dipping===
Complete acid dips are best, but expensive. By this method, the entire body is dipped into a tank.
**Even high grade epoxies and finishes are not 100% impermeable to water and air.

===Various commercial rust encapsulators and rust removers (need to be sorted)===
POR-15 is expensive. Are there other products that are just as good, but not so pricey?

*[http://www.eastwoodco.com/shopping/product/detailmain.jsp?itemID=16408&itemType=PRODUCT&iMainCat=373&iSubCat=374&iProductID=16408 Eastwood Rust Encapsulator]
*[http://www.eastwoodco.com/jump.jsp?itemID=1117&itemType=PRODUCT Eastwood Heavy-Duty Anti-Rust]
*[http://www.eastwoodco.com/jump.jsp?itemID=258&itemType=PRODUCT&path=1%2C2%2C458%2C467%2C473&KickerID=39&KICKER Eastwood Metal Wash]
*[http://www.eastwoodco.com/shopping/product/detailmain.jsp?itemID=15974&itemType=PRODUCT&iMainCat=373&iSubCat=374&iProductID=15974 Eastwood Rust Converter] (converts rust to inert black oxide)
*[http://www.eastwoodco.com/jump.jsp?itemID=1124&itemType=PRODUCT Oxisolv Rust Remover]
*[http://www.eastwoodco.com/jump.jsp?itemID=11122&itemType=PRODUCT Eastwood Rust Dissolver]
*Amchem Metalprep
*Duro Extend
*[http://www.eurekafluidfilm.com/ Fluid Film]
*[http://bluelightning.zoovy.com/product/RR32 Blue Lightning]
*Picklex-20
*[http://rust007.com/knockout.htm Rust Knockout]
*[http://rust007.com/destroyerhome.htm Rust Destroyer]
*Rust-Mort
*Rust-Check
*[http://www.corroless.com/ Corroless]
*[http://www.zerorust.com/ Zero Rust]
*Rust Reformer
*[http://www.ospho.com/ Ospho]
*Oxisolve
*Rust-n-me
*DuPont Metal Conditioner
*PPG Metal Prep
*DuPont Vari-Prime
*Recommended body filler is All-Metal. Thought to be more moisture-resistant.
(are some rust "converters" really just muriatic acid?)

===Cleaning the inside of a boxed, open-ended frame===
Blow out all the dirt, etc. Then, attach a strong towel to some strong cord. Soak the towel with rust treatment chemical, and pull it through the frame.

===Treating rusted body panels===
First, rust must be removed: chemicals, blasting, sanding, or cutting it out and replacing with fresh metal. If you can't completely remove it, you'll need to use a rust converter or a rust encapsulator.

With converters and encapsulator, be sure to treat rust from both sides of the panel.

*Why do older cars rust more quickly? Theories are:
**Cars are more aggressively coated these days. Galvanizing (explain).
**Steel used in cars is of a higher quality these days.
**More salt is used on roads these days.


*What grit sandpaper to use when removing rust from body panels?
*Holes must be cut out, and new metal welded in.
*To remove rust, wire brush, or wire wheel the area.
*POR-15 shouldn't be used on parts that will see direct sunlight -- it's color will change (although it won't lose its anti-rust capabilities).
*POR-15 can't be applied over primer. Has to be done per instructions.
*POR-15 is largely considered a "duct tape fix" or a "git-er-done" solution. It may be OK for the home hobbyist, but it's not considered the "right way" or the "professional way" to handle rust.
*Brands: POR-15, Zero Rust, Eastwood Rust Encapsulator. These are NOT rust "converters", they don't alter rust, etc. There is a common misconseption that the ones listed are converters, but that is in fact false. They are a coating intended to seal out air and moisture. 
*Another argument against rust "treatments" is that many of them require the surface to be lightly rusted first. "Inducing" rust seems wrong to people.
*Rust-protection products can either act as a coating, or as a sacrificial anode (explain).
*If POR-15 and similar products have a "lifetime warranty", explain how guarantees like that don't involve labor costs, losses, or other related costs.
*One recommendation is: after sandblasting, remove some more of the surface metal by sanding with sandpaper. This is done to remove the salt, sand, moisture, etc. from the surface.
*After preparing panels, coating them with epoxy primer is recommended.
*Phosphoric acid or muriatic acid are recommended as well.
*Rust forms so quickly that if you are sand blasting, media blasting, etc., the surface rust will begin to form before you finish the job.
*Molasses is thought to work, but takes a while. 1 part molasses to 10 parts water.
*To remove rust: Comet/Ajax with Scotch-Brites, and then muriatic acid with scotch-brites, and then rinse and wash with Comet/Ajax again to neutralize the acid.
*POR-15 is a three-step process: degreaser, then metal prep, then POR-15 paint.  (verify this).
*What's "all-metal"? Same as all-metal prep?

Links to review: http://www.tfhrc.gov/pubrds/novdec98/laboratory.htm , http://www2.sherwin-williams.com/im/cs/cs-spring2003/feature-01.asp .

==References==
*[http://www.hotrodders.com/forum/rust-what-acceptable-permanent-ways-get-rid-47303.html Acceptable ways to handle rust], ''Hotrodders Bulletin Board'', September 7, 2004.
*[http://hotrodders.com/forum/rust-pits-39.html Rust pits], ''Hotrodders Bulletin Board'', November 27, 2001.
*[http://hotrodders.com/forum/rustbusters-good-bad-40.html Rustbusters: good or bad?], ''Hotrodders Bulletin Board'', December 4, 2001.
*[http://hotrodders.com/forum/rust-70.html Rust], ''Hotrodders Bulletin Board'', January 26, 2002.
*[http://hotrodders.com/forum/rust-210.html Rust], ''Hotrodders Bulletin Board'',  June 15, 2002.
*[http://hotrodders.com/forum/pitted-rust-280.html Pitted Rust], ''Hotrodders Bulletin Board'', July 26, 2002.
*[http://www.eastwoodco.com/jump.jsp?itemID=1476&itemType=CATEGORY&iMainCat=688&iSubCat=1476 Treating rusted body panels] ''Eastwood Company''.
*[http://hotrodders.com/forum/how-do-i-address-rust-404.html How do I address rust?], ''Hotrodders Bulletin Board'', October 7, 2002.
*[http://hotrodders.com/forum/rust-spot-406.html Rust spot], ''Hotrodders Bulletin Board'', October 7, 2002.
*[http://hotrodders.com/forum/completely-covered-surface-rust-help-458.html Completely covered with surface rust...help], ''Hotrodders Bulletin Board'', October 24, 2002.
*[http://hotrodders.com/forum/d-sanders-rust-461.html D/A sanders and rust], ''Hotrodders Bulletin Board'', October 25, 2002.
*[http://hotrodders.com/forum/chrome-wheels-rust-634.html Chrome wheels rust], ''Hotrodders Bulletin Board'', December 9, 2002.
*[http://hotrodders.com/forum/filling-up-holes-body-including-rust-holes-648.html Filling up holes in body, including rust holes], ''Hotrodders Bulletin Board'', December 12, 2002.
*[http://hotrodders.com/forum/surface-rust-791.html Surface rust], ''Hotrodders Bulletin Board'', January 12, 2003.
*[http://hotrodders.com/forum/rust-dimples-843.html Rust dimples], ''Hotrodders Bulletin Board'', January 20, 2003.
*[http://hotrodders.com/forum/some-rust-floor-pans-suggestions-877.html Some rust in the floor pans. Suggestions?], ''Hotrodders Bulletin Board'', January 26, 2003.
*[http://hotrodders.com/forum/what-rust-treatment-will-resist-welding-frame-892.html What rust treatment will resist welding -- frame?], ''Hotrodders Bulletin Board'', January 29, 2003.
*[http://hotrodders.com/forum/rust-treatment-982.html Rust treatment], ''Hotrodders Bulletin Board'', February 18, 2003.
*[http://hotrodders.com/forum/rust-1054.html Rust], ''Hotrodders Bulletin Board'', March 4, 2003.
*[http://hotrodders.com/forum/surface-rust-removal-1135.html Surface rust removal.], ''Hotrodders Bulletin Board'', March 20, 2003.
*[http://hotrodders.com/forum/rust-pitting-1170.html Rust pitting!], ''Hotrodders Bulletin Board'', March 26, 2003.