Editing Rust

{{Newarticle}} =What is rust?= ==What causes rust?== Need more background here. Plus info on why newer cars don't rust nearly as badly, and on salt/winter driving conditions. Review this article: http://www.metalwebnews.com/howto/rust/rust.html . *Why do older cars rust more quickly? Theories are: **Cars are more aggressively coated these days. Galvanizing (explain). **Steel used in cars is of a higher quality these days. **More salt is used on roads these days. =How to remove rust= ==Assessment== Examining rust After cleaning off rust of floor pans, wait until it's dark, and put a trouble light under your car. Pinholes in the sheet metal will show up very well in such a situation. Picture of this would be good. Jab rusty areas with a screwdriver, scratch awl, or icepick, and see if they go through. assessment -- what's the part? can it be removed? soaked? how large? body panel?; how bad is the rust? tricks for assessing tools/materials/methods selection -- consider time and skill. can weld? how valuable is project? have sandblaster? how much money can spend? ==Mechanical removal of rust== mechanical removal (flapper discs, wire wheels, etc.) Shop vac, putty knife, metal brush, wire wheel on grinder for loose stuff, or wire wheel that fits on a drill (not as good as grinder). *Start with as low as 36 grit, and finish with as high as 220. *Scotch-brite pads and Comet/Ajax. *3M clean-n-strip disc? *steel toothbrush *To remove rust, wire brush, or wire wheel the area. These discs are considered superior to wire wheels: [http://solutions.3m.com/wps/portal/3M/en_US/Manufacturing/Industry/Product-Catalog/Online-Catalog/?PC_7_0_4UVL_root=GST1T4S9TCgv&PC_7_0_4UVL_output=html&PC_7_0_4UVL_gvel=H55CPWS904gl&PC_7_0_4UVL_vroot=81LC4NNTD4ge&PC_7_0_4UVL_node=RCM96XTX07be&PC_7_0_4UVL_theme=en_us_manufacturingindustry_portal&PC_7_0_4UVL_command=CustomizePageHandler 3M clean & strip disc], or [http://solutions.3m.com/wps/portal/3M/en_US/Marine/Home/Products/Catalog/?PC_7_0_4S4T_root=GST1T4S9TCgv&PC_7_0_4S4T_output=html&PC_7_0_4S4T_gvel=RJ5GMFSMV0gl&PC_7_0_4S4T_vroot=GS4JK4Y166ge&PC_7_0_4S4T_node=GSGKXWRKYVbe&PC_7_0_4S4T_theme=en_US_marineproducts_portal&PC_7_0_4S4T_command=AbcPageHandler 3M bristle disc], or [http://solutions.3m.com/wps/portal/3M/en_US/Marine/Home/Products/Catalog/?PC_7_0_4S4T_command=AbcPageHandler&PC_7_0_4S4T_theme=en_US_marineproducts_portal&PC_7_0_4S4T_output=html&PC_7_0_4S4T_vroot=GS4JK4Y166ge&PC_7_0_4S4T_gvel=RJ5GMFSMV0gl&PC_7_0_4S4T_node=GSVDY2CZYDbe&PC_7_0_4S4T_root=GST1T4S9TCgv Surface Conditioning Disc] *When using wire wheel on drill, when the wire bristles start to bend one way, reverse the drill and work in the other direction for a while. ===Media blasting rust=== *Sand is not recommended for media blasting panels. It acts like little hammers, warping panels with by compressive forces (analagous to hail). Use softer media (list examples): 55 grit silica-based media. Can be done, but must be cautious. Use a small sandblaster, or a sandblaster set on low (expand on this: distance, angle, etc.). *Can sandblasting "increase" rust? Or, if the rust is removed and the metal is sealed, shouldn't it be eliminated? Some thoughts on this are: **Although sandblasting may appear to have removed all the rust to the naked eye, it hasn't really done so. **It's caused by water in the air compressor line, as sand will harbor some moisture. Also, compressed air contains moisture. And, sand has salt in it. A moisture trap in the line should solve the problem with the water in the air line. *Many panels have seams, hems, and bends that are inaccessible by blasting, and can hold moisture and rust. *Body panels can be sand blasted. However, it must be done carefully (explain). The pressure of the sand hitting the body panels causes warpage. *One option is to use chemical paint stripper, then use a sandblaster to lightly "dust" the remaining rust. *Media blasting can remove good metal from body panels too. Also, used media can have metal particles left in the media. *Soda blasting can remove light rust, and won't warp panels. *[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sugar_sand Sugar sand] is finer and less-damaging than regular sand. *For cleaning in seams, a spot blaster is recommended. * Take precautions with proper safety equipment (list it here) Need more info on the numerous types of media, which ones are recommended for what, cost, availability, etc. ==Chemical removal of rust== chemical removal -- spray/paint on, plus soaking list applicable chems here Phosphoric acid, muriatic acid, toilet bowl cleaner, naval jelly -- let it sit: 20 minutes, hours, overnight. Coca-cola for rust removal? After acid, flush with water and baking soda. Lots of "rust neutralizers/metal etchers/floor etchers/metal conditioners" contain phosphoric acid. Turns the rust into a hard black substance. ===Getting your entire body acid dipped=== About $1000 - $1500? From Redi-Strip (technically not an acid? research this), a national chain. What does redi-strip use to strip vehicles? Can a hobbyist acquire and use the same stuff? ==Rust encapsulation== Hotrodders typically divide into 3 camps over the use of these products: #won't use them at all #will use them, but not on body panels #will use them on anything Explain the perspectives on the use of rust encapsulators. *Brands: POR-15, Zero Rust, Eastwood Rust Encapsulator. These are NOT rust "converters", they don't alter rust, etc. There is a common misconseption that the ones listed are converters, but that is in fact false. They are a coating intended to seal out air and moisture. They are rust encapsulators. *Another argument against rust "treatments" is that many of them require the surface to be lightly rusted first. "Inducing" rust seems wrong to people. *POR-15 shouldn't be used on parts that will see direct sunlight -- it's color will change (although it won't lose its anti-rust capabilities). *POR-15 can't be applied over primer. Has to be done per instructions. *POR-15 is largely considered a "duct tape fix" or a "git-er-done" solution. It may be OK for the home hobbyist, but it's not considered the "right way" or the "professional way" to handle rust. *POR-15 is a three-step process: degreaser, then metal prep, then POR-15 paint. (verify this). *If POR-15 and similar products have a "lifetime warranty", explain how guarantees like that don't involve labor costs, losses, or other related costs. Hard to remove from skin. To remove from skin: Soak in vegetable oil for 30 minutes, or use a solvent (is there a specific POR-15 solvent?). POR-15, Zero-Rust, Eastwood Rust Encapsulator These might be the top 3? Len Stuart of Autobodystore.com recommends Picklex-20 followed by Zero Rust: http://www.autobodystore.com/new_page_1.htm from Eastwood: [http://www.eastwoodco.com/jump.jsp?itemID=852&itemType=CATEGORY&iMainCat=688 Rust encapsulator v. POR-15] Topcoat these products? Some may have a UV-resistant clearcoat to go with them -- research it. Some professionals have expressed the concern that it's best to use rust encapsulator products "alone", and not within a professional coating product line. Good thread on this is here: http://hotrodders.com/forum/zero-rust-primer-98104.html . POR-15 is expensive. Are there other products that are just as good, but not so pricey? One problem with using "rust coating products" is that, for hobbyists, it's often best to stick with a single line of paint/finish products, from bare metal to clearcoat. Using most rust products means that you're outside of the product line for the rest of the finish. So, it may be physically incompatible (resulting in a poor paint job), or it may void the product warranty. Need to go through these three companies rust product lines, and analyze all the available products. *"silver" POR-15? Has a filler in it for minor imperfections? When selecting a rust encapsulator, need to consider: Product compatibility? What can it be thinned with? How much? How long to dry/cure? UV protection? Colors? *Some people mentioned that professional body shops don't use POR-15 or similar rust "encapsulators" because: **They would have to re-do too much of their work. **Rust prevention products are primarily advertised in hobbyist mags, not in periodicals read by professionals in the paint and body industry. **The lack of rust preventive products in non-hobbyist industries does appear suspect. For example, why don't ships at sea use POR-15? **The major paint manufacturers like Sherwin Williams, PPG, and DuPont don't produce a POR-15 like product. This is thought to be because they couldn't possibly warranty such a product. **The fact that POR-15 is not used by manufacturers is also important. ==Removing rust from body panels== ===What's the "best" way to handle body rust?=== The "best" way to complete a task often implies the presence of the "best" conditions. Not just the "best" tools, "best" skills, and "best" amount of time. Also, the "best" payback on your investment of resources. So, the overall "best" way to handle rust may not be the "best" way for you or your particular situation. Here are some of the more significant factors that will affect your choice of how to handle rust on body panels: *How bad is the rust? *What tools do you have? Do you have access to a sandblaster and welder? *How much money can you spend? *How valuable is the vehicle? How rare? Resell value? Worth investing time into? *What type of climate do you live in? Dry or humid? Summery or wintery? Salt in the air (near the ocean) or on the roads (snowy winter)? *What's your plan for the car? Daily driver? Show vehicle? Fixing it up to sell? That being said, the general consensus on the overall "best" way to handle body panel rust is this: *'''Remove minor surface rust with phosphoric-acid based products. When down to bare metal, sand, clean and dry the panel, and spray it with a high-quality 2-part epoxy primer/sealer.''' *'''If it's anything more than minor surface rust on a body panel, cut it out and replace it. In most cases, this will involve carefully butt-welding in a patch panel.''' *'''If you're dealing with a complete vehicle body with rust, have it commercially dipped.''' ===What to apply to sandblasted steel prior to priming, to kill unseen rust=== Phosphoric acid, ZeroRust,. Does epoxy primer adhere well to bare steel? Yes. Can body filler and high-build primers be used on top of epoxy primer? Yes. #Take scuff pad, wet it with phosphoric acid or product containing mainly phosphoric acid. #Scrub metal to a clean, bright finish. Wipe dry with paper towels, and let flash dry completely. #Scuff dry panel with dry scuff pad, wipe with wax and grease remover until clean and dry; when wiped with a clean towel, it comes back up clean. ===How to treat rusty drip-rails?=== #sand blast #wash with wax and grease remover #spray with 2 coats of epoxy #spray with seam sealer ===Step-by-step epoxy primer application to panels=== #strip, and sand with 80-grit sandpaper #clean with wax and grease remover until a clean towel can be rubbed on it without discoloring #spray 2 coats of epoxy, according to manufacturer's directions #body filler can be applied next, although sometimes the epoxy will need to be scuffed or sanded (read instructions) #when the filler work is done, scuff the whole panel with a red scotch-brite pad. #then, apply two more coats of epoxy, followed by high-build primer. ===Treating light body rust (from storing panels) prior to epoxy=== Sand with 80 grit, wash with wax and grease remover. Use waterborne wax and grease remover, instead of solvent-borne (research exactly what that means), let set 15-30 minutes. Dry with a blower and a tack rag. Spray epoxy. ===Soda blasting issues=== When soda blasting body panels, the resultant film can negatively affect finish adhesion. Epoxy primer can peel off. Soda blast medium must be "neutralized". 24 or 36 grit grinder, followed by warm water with soap. Do this with a scuff pad, and rinse thoroughly. Some finish companies specifically advise against the use of their products on soda-blasted finishes. ===Quick fix for exposed areas (dents, etc.)=== If a dent causes an area of bare metal to be exposed. To "hold" it so it won't rust until a paint job is ready to be done: gently bump out the dent, sand, rattle can primer, rattle can sealer. ===Rusted window channels=== Bad news. Difficult to fabricate. ===Muriatic acid (hydrochloric acid)=== For cleaning aluminum, not steel. Don't use it on body metal! Causes hydrogen embrittlement. ===The fiberglass resin patch trick=== One technique that has been recommended is to grind/clean the rust, tape the underside of the panel to be patched, and then fill the holes with fiberglass resin, then paint and undercoat. This trick is not really a good idea -- when the body flexes, there will be cracks in the fiberglass pieces. ===Butt-weld or lap-weld=== Need pros and cons here. Butt-weld is generally preferred. Use 18-20 gauge sheet metal. ===Storing body panels=== Use epoxy primer (AKA epoxy primer/sealer), it won't allow rust. Not the same as regular primer. Wet-sand down to 400 grit, wash/dry, grind down rust to bare metal, apply body filler where needed, blow off, clean with prep-sol or similar cleaner, tape it up, and prime with epoxy primer. ===Panel adhesives=== Need info on these. ===Cavity waxes and seam sealers=== 3M rustfighter, Transtar's Amber Coating, Amsoil's HD. Transtar sells 360 degree spray head wand -- find this. How to apply seam sealer/cavity wax? Plus, more general info on cavity wax. ===Rivets?=== Very low-end solution, like fiberglass patching metal. ===Plasma spray welding=== With plasma spray welding, metal wire is converted to sprayable form, and used to repair rust holes, fill panel joints, and blend patch panels. One example is the machine sold by [http://www.rustbustersllc.com Rustbusters]. ===Body filler to bare metal?=== It's a common procedure to apply body filler to bare metal, but it's not the "best" way to do it. User "badbob" on the HRBB says: "fillers get applied over bare metal every day and it's an acceptable recomended procedure, but applying a quality epoxy primer first adds corrosion resistance, durability, adhesion, and filler flexability. It just takes more time. Time that most people aren't willing to spend." ===Accessing rust between interior panels=== Pressure washer with pencil tip can knock everything loose out. "For the doors, and removeable panels that I can't get inside completely, I will simply pour the epoxy inside and slosh it around, and let it soak into the seams." -- by adtkart here: http://hotrodders.com/forum/need-more-info-rust-please-help-113166.html . Drill small holes, get a spray wand with a 360-degree head. Then, when done, weld the holes shut. Turn panels around to slosh rust remover around. Blow compressed air inside the panel. Cut hole in panel? Spray rust killer with garden sprayer? A mirror can be used to check areas for rust. Don't spray expanding foam. It absorbs water, and will cause more rust. It can also expand and cause the panels to push out. ===Removing pitted rust=== After removing all surface rust, treat with metal prep, wash, dry, sand, prime, fill the pits with polyester putty (or Evercoat's Metal 2 Metal), then smooth and prime again. A spot blaster is useful for this: silica as the medium. Grinding wheel, die grinder. Or, repeatedly prime with a high build primer and block sand. You may have to prime/block several times to get the pitted area up to the same level as the surface around it. Sprayable body filler, called "SlickSand"? From Evercoat? Like a "very high build primer"? Hard, but sands easy. Let naval jelly sit on the pitted area overnight, if possible. Cover naval jelly with plastic wrap to keep it from drying out overnight. Heat the pitted area until it glows, and then cool it with oil on a rag. Clean with wax/grease remover, scuff, prime, paint. Just for small areas, because it causes wrinkles and shrink marks. Product recommendation: Featherfill? ===Removing surface rust=== *How about using baking soda and water? *To remove surface rust, use naval jelly (jelled phosphoric acid) and steel wool. #Work in small areas, not larger than a square foot. #Apply jelly with 000 steel wool, rub it in, and allow it to set for a couple of minutes. Don't let it dry. #Rub again with steel wool. Repeat a few times, and then clean the area. Dry it immediately. *To convert/neutralize rust # Get everything off first that you can by sanding and wire brushing (wire brushing will get into the pits better) # A rust converter/neutralizer containing phospheric acid or another type of acid shold be used # Be careful of getting this stuff on your concrete floor as it will bubble and decompose it # Follow the instructions on the bottle when you are done there should be a fine coating on the metal which will help prevent further rust from developing # This stuff is hard on paintbrushes (eats away the brisles) and you must be very careful of your eyes. Also it will ruin paint so again use caution. ---- Need 80-180 grit sandpaper, DA sander (or sand by hand), steel wool, naval jelly, squirt bottle w/warm soapy water, and paper towels. #Get all heavy rust off with DA sander and 80-180 grit paper. #Working in 1-2 square feet at a time, wearing rubber gloves, scrub with naval jelly and steel wool. Don't let the naval jelly dry, keep it wet, squirt with bottle. #Rinse and re-apply naval jelly if necessary, to get to clean shiny metal. #When finished with an area, wipe off excess naval jelly with paper towel, squirt on warm soapy water, and dry thoroughly. Then wipe down with lacquer thinner. Can then sand with 180 grit. After that, you can just use wax and grease remover, and then paint with epoxy primer. ===After removing rust=== Need to wash and prep surface, with a solvent like lacquer thinner or DuPont Prep-Sol. ===Fixing rust holes=== Grind down all the paint and rust from around the hole. Clamp a piece of copper to the other side (roof flashing, penny, etc.). Then, fill in the hole with a MIG welder. When done, unclamp the copper -- it won't stick to the panel. Also, it absorbs the heat, so the panel won't warp as much. Rust pinholes are hard to repair with a welder because the "holes" are actually "craters". The hole is the bottom of a craterlike thinned out area of metal. Will brass work too? What about drilling and patching pinholes? ===Removing rust in seams=== Spot blaster is useful. To do it right, you will generally need to pull the seam apart, remove the rust, and then hit it with a rust conversion product. However, sometimes you can open up the layers slightly with a hammer and putty knife used between the spotwelds. Bend the flange open, media blast into the seam, clean, prime with epoxy primer, brush in urethane seam sealer, and close the seam back up. If the seam is not accessible, flood it with a penetrating cavity wax, like 3M's Rustfighter. Products: #[http://sem.ws/product.php?product_id=97 SEM High Build Self Leveling Seam Sealer] ===Weld-through primer=== A zinc-rich coating that conducts current from a welder. It can provide protection on lap welds and inner weld seams. As a general rule, weld-through primer is applied to the mating areas when welding body panels. List a few commercially available weld-through primers here. 3M, U-Pol, etc. It doesn't burn off when welding. ===What exactly is e-coating?=== Research this. =Miscellaneous= ===Cleaning light surface rust off crankshaft=== Have a machine shop do it, or: #Very fine steel wool or scotchbrite pad, and light oil. Rub around the journals in the direction of rotation, not across. OR #Cut 600 grip wet or dry sandpaper into strips the width of the crank journals. Wrap it around the journal, and secure it with tape. Then, make a strap from leather, about one-half the width of the sandpaper strips. Use the strap on the paper in a shoeshine motion. Finish off with some light oil on the sandpaper. Do a few strokes first, then clean the paper, because the rust will clog the sandpaper. LP3 as rust inhibitor on crankshafts? ===How to remove rust protection=== How to remove old rust protection finishes? Or undercoating? Wire wheel? Brake cleaner? Kerosene? Heat gun? EZ-Off oven cleaner? Mineral spirits? Freeze with dry ice, then chisel out? Wallpaper steamer? ===Rustoleum=== Is generally considered to be a poor choice for most automotive applications. Good for cheap shop shelving, etc. ===Underside rust removal=== Best not to do this as overhead work. Tilt the car on a rotisserie, or raise it significantly overhead. Another option is to keep the car low to the ground, and, with plastic sheeting and duct tape, seal the area between car and floor. Leave the rear area of the plastic "tent" open for access. At the front of the "tent", affix a shop vac hose (exhaust). Blast. ===Electronic Rust Inhibition=== *[http://www.counteractrust.com/ CounterAct Electronic Rust Protection]? *[http://www.ruststopnorthamerica.com/electronic-rustproofing-rust-proofing.htm Rust Stop North America] This is known as [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cathodic_protection cathodic protection]? Research this. And: [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacrificial_anode sacrificial anode] and [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galvanic_anode galvanic anode]. ===Removing rust from chrome=== Use a mag wheel polish, fine steel wool, crumpled-up pieces of aluminum foil. ===Electrolysis=== Removing rust with electrolysis -- research this: http://www.stovebolt.com/techtips/rust/electrolytic_derusting.htm , http://hotrodders.com/forum/rust-removal-lower-arms-other-suspension-parts-108384.html , http://www.davidbradley.net/ERR.html , http://antique-engines.com/trailer-electrolysis.htm . ===Cleaning rusty tools=== Soak in a bucket with: parts cleaner or paint thinner. Tumble them in a cement mixer with sand and oil. ===How to clean engine water jackets or radiator of rust=== Flush with CLR, Kool Klean (can't find). Manufacturers of CLR say that it shouldn't be used in a radiator: http://www.jelmar.com/CLRbasic.asp . When building an engine, to prevent rust: when done washing it and blowing it dry, oil it down, and store it in a plastic bag -- sealed (confirm this). ===Gas tanks=== Put a handful of nuts and bolts in, chain, chainsaw blade, etc., and shake it around a bit to knock out the loose stuff. Not too aggressive -- you'll dent the tank. Then, clean with phosphoric acid. Pour it in, let it sit for up to an hour, then flush with water and baking soda to neutralize. Or, Eastwood has a kit for this: an acid to clean it, and then something to coat it with. However, some people say that the coating can clog up the fuel filter, or trash your OEM sending unit. The best way to do it is to take it out and get it re-tinned. ===Evapo-Rust=== Interesting article here: http://www.stovebolt.com/techtips/rust/evaporust/index.html . Forum guy reviews evapo-rust. Disadvantages of acid: can't breathe it, must wash all parts thoroughly after using it, or the acid starts working again when it gets wet. ===Epoxy primer=== No, you can't get epoxy primer in a rattle can. It's a two-part mix, with a hardener that has to be added before you spray it. Rattle can primer is typically porous, which means it wil attract water, and consequently rust, whereas 2-part epoxy primer is not. ===Understanding "magic formula" marketing=== The market for rust removal, conversion, and encapsulation products is rife with far-fetched claims of "secret formula" rust solutions. Realistically, it's not very difficult for one company to chemically analyze another company's "secret formula", and produce an identical (or extremely similar) product. Many of the various rust removal and encapsulation products are, more or less, the same. A lot of it boils down to marketing, and the situation is only exacerbated by the fact that it's difficult to make a thorough assessment of a rust treatment product. Properly assessing a rust treatment solution would likely involve waiting several years, and then removing any outer layers of finish so that any existing underlying rust could be examined. The uneducated consumer will likely recoil at the abundance of "magic" formulas for treating rust, and revert to selecting select a safe, well-known, name-brand product line. This is a reasonable solution for many, but the name-brand rust treatment products tend to be rather expensive, especially in consideration of the fact that they are often comprised of inexpensive, common chemicals. Someone who has achieved good results with a certain combination of rust treatment products will often stay loyal to their method, without exploring other potential options that may indeed provide better results at a lower cost. ===Everything you need to know about rust=== For a full-rounded knowledge, someone will need to know: *The different "families" of rust treatment products: rust conversion, rust encapsulation, and rust prevention. *The different rust removal methods: mechanical removal, soaking, commercial dipping, "converting" by spraying, painting, or scrubbing on, cutting out, encapsulating, electrolysis. *How to know when to use which product, and which method, and when. ===Various commercial rust treatment products=== ====Rust converters/dissolvers==== *[http://www.tinmantech.com/html/must_for_rust_remover_inhibi.php Must for Rust] Merchant description: removes rust and corrosion, non-caustic to skin, needs no neutralizing, primer goes right over it. $28/gallon. *[http://www.eastwoodco.com/shopping/product/detailmain.jsp?itemID=15974&itemType=PRODUCT&iMainCat=373&iSubCat=374&iProductID=15974 Eastwood Rust Converter] Merchant description: 2-part mix, adheres to bare or rusty steel, and can be topcoated with most coatings. 1 gallon each of the 2-part mix is $125. *[http://www.rust-cure.com/ Rust Cure] Merchant description: phosphoric acid-based. leaves a thin film that bonds well with most primers and paints. for pricing, need to see this page: http://rustcure.bizland.com/xwheretobuy.html . *[http://www.eastwoodco.com/jump.jsp?itemID=1124&itemType=PRODUCT Oxisolv Rust Remover] Merchant description: dissolves rust and leaves behind a zinc phosphate coating. Spray/brush/dip. Non-toxic, non-flammable, and re-usable. Must be cleaned off before priming. *[http://www.eastwoodco.com/jump.jsp?itemID=11122&itemType=PRODUCT Eastwood Rust Dissolver] Merchant description: acid free rust remover, leaves surface ready to paint, plate, or powder coat. Suitable for engine parts, and harmless to copper, brass, aluminum, solder, lead, plastic, rubber, seals, wood or vinyl. Surface must remain wet for product to work. $40/gallon. *[http://sem.ws/product.php?product_id=164 Rust-Mort] Merchant's description: "Converts rust to a black or grayish, hard, insoluble, protective coating". *[http://sem.ws/product.php?product_id=206 SEM Rust-Seal] Manufac descrip: "Transforms rust leaving a tough, permanent, black protective coating. RUST-SEAL can be left exposed or may be topcoated with enamels, lacquers or urethanes." (What about the converters that leave a "protective film" on the metal. They say that they don't need neutralization, and they don't need to be washed off. Is this as good as cleaning to bare metal, and then hitting with epoxy primer?) ====Rust encapsulators==== *[http://www.eastwoodco.com/shopping/product/detailmain.jsp?itemID=1137&itemType=PRODUCT&iMainCat=373&iSubCat=374&iProductID=1137 Eastwood Rust Encapsulator] Manufacturer description: encapsulates rust and primes in one step. can be used under or over body fillers. compatible with most topcoats. $100/gallon. ====Rust preventatives==== *[http://www.brownells.com/aspx/NS/store/ProductDetail.aspx?p=1134 Cosmoline] "Rated to protect polished steel panels from rust for one year in open shed storage, and 30 days, minimum, in a humidity cabinet." $30/gallon *[http://boeshield.com/index.htm Boeshield T-9] "Designed to penetrate metal pores and dissolve minor corrosion, then leave a resilient waxy coating that lasts for many months." $100/gallon *[http://www.eastwoodco.com/jump.jsp?itemID=1117&itemType=PRODUCT Eastwood Heavy-Duty Anti-Rust]. Merchant's description: spray-on brown wax film which forms an air and water-tight barrier. won't crack, flake, or peel. used for inside door panels, or to protect bare metal parts during storage. $15/quart *[http://www.oxisolv.com/html/long_term.html Oxisolv rust inhibitor long term] -- Merchant description: displaces water on metal parts to prevent rust. environmentally safe, bio-degradable, protects steel. Apply by spraying thoroughly, or dipping. *[http://sem.ws/product.php?product_id=161 SEM internal panel coating] Manufacturer description: "provides corrosion protection to inner body panels and other metal parts" ====Cavity waxes==== ====Seam sealers==== [http://sem.ws/product.php?product_id=269 SEM high build self-leveling seam sealer]. Manufacturer description: "Seals interior and exterior joints and voids. Paintable in 30 minutes." [http://sem.ws/product.php?product_id=98 SEM self-leveling seam sealer]. Manufacturer description: "Designed for use on drip rails, trunk seams, and roof channels". ====Metal washes==== *[http://www.eastwoodco.com/jump.jsp?itemID=258&itemType=PRODUCT&path=1%2C2%2C458%2C467%2C473&KickerID=39&KICKER Eastwood Metal Wash]. Merchant's description: dry compound that is mixed with water. removes grease and oils from bare metal, and leaves behind corrosion inhibitors that prevent flash rusting and promote paint adhesion. $11 for enough dry mix to make 7 quarts. *Amchem Metalprep *Transtar Amber *[http://www.krylon.com/main/product_template.cfm?levelid=5&sub_levelid=13&productid=1789&content=product_details Krylon rust tough primers] *[http://www.rustbeeter.com RustBeeter] (made from beets, maybe it's like molasses?) *Duro Extend *Devoe Bar-Rust *Loctite Extend Rust Treatment *[http://www.permatex.com/products/automotive/specialized_maintenance_repair/body_interior_trim/auto_Permatex_Rust_Treatment.htm Permatex Rust Treatment] *[http://ridrust.com/ RidRust] *[http://solutions.3m.com/wps/portal/3M/en_US/3MAutomotive/Aftermarket/Products/Product-Catalog/?PC_7_0_53BC_root=GST1T4S9TCgv&PC_7_0_53BC_output=html&PC_7_0_53BC_gvel=6DTWTJQPBBgl&PC_7_0_53BC_vroot=GSLPLPKL4Xge&PC_7_0_53BC_node=GSQJ0YVJLSbe&PC_7_0_53BC_theme=en_US_aad_portal&PC_7_0_53BC_command=CustomizePageHandler Rust Fighter] *DuPont 5717S Metal Conditioner *[http://www.jasco-help.com/products/prod_mg.htm Jasco] *[http://www.napasco.com/enrustreat.htm Mar-Hyde Rust Converter] *Rust N-M-E *[http://www.hammerite-automotive.com/ Hammerite] *[http://www.eurekafluidfilm.com/ Fluid Film] *Waxoyl *[http://rustonic.com Rustonic] *[http://duplicolor.com/products/rustfix.html Duplicolor Rust Fix] *[http://www.therustdoctor.com/ Rust Doctor] *[http://bluelightning.zoovy.com/product/RR32 Blue Lightning] *Picklex-20 *[http://rust007.com/knockout.htm Rust Knockout] *[http://www.napasco.com/enrustreat.htm Enrust] *[http://rust007.com/destroyerhome.htm Rust Destroyer] *Rust-Check *[http://www.evaporust.com/ Evapo-Rust Rust Remover] *[http://www.corroless.com/ Corroless] *[http://www.kleanstrip.com/special.htm Klean Strip Rust Converter] *[http://www.zerorust.com/ Zero Rust] -- [http://www.zerorust.com/tech.htm tech page], [http://www.zerorust.com/faq.htm faq]. Rust cleaning product is "prep-step", and clearcoat is called "crystal coat" *Rust Reformer *[http://www.rustbullet.com Rust Bullet] *[http://www.ospho.com/ Ospho] *Oxisolve *Rust-n-me *DuPont Metal Conditioner *PPG Metal Prep *DuPont Vari-Prime *Recommended body filler is All-Metal. Thought to be more moisture-resistant. (are some rust "converters" really just muriatic acid?) ===Rustproofing brake rotors=== Zinc dip, also Eastwood has some solutions? ===All-Metal filler?=== Aluminum filler compound. Good for filling holes? ===Preventing engine rust=== Engine storage spray, or wipe down with [http://www.marvelmysteryoil.com/ Marvel Mystery Oil]. Cylinder walls with flash rust: marvel mystery oil, steel wool, etc. Pitted rusting will necessitate a rebuild. ===Frame rust=== Sandblasting or dipping is best. Then, wire wheel is next-best. Can be professionally sandblasted and powder-coated for ~$250 at a good price. Patching is usually not worthwhile, unless it's a special or valuable frame. Too easy to replace, and too much potential structural damage. Has to be done perfectly. Can be replaced with steel of the same gauge as the original frame, and welded in to place. Where is the rust on the frame? In a critical stress area? How bad is it? For minor surface rusting, with mostly metal showing through, it's OK to just powder-coat it. OR: #blast/wire wheel #phosphoric acid #clean off acid with thinner #etching primer #epoxy primer ====Cleaning the inside of a boxed, open-ended frame==== Blow out all the dirt, etc. Then, attach a strong towel to some strong cord. Soak the towel with rust treatment chemical, and pull it through the frame. ===Treating rusted body panels=== First, rust must be removed: chemicals, blasting, sanding, or cutting it out and replacing with fresh metal. If you can't completely remove it, you'll need to use a rust converter or a rust encapsulator. With converters and encapsulator, be sure to treat rust from both sides of the panel. ===Axle tube rust=== When rebuilding a rear end, the rust can be cleaned out with naval jelly/shoving rags down it with a broomstick. ===Vinyl tops=== Rust is common in vinyl tops. The vinyl gets porous after a few years, and lets in moisture. How to prevent? ===Metal etches leave coating?=== Follow up on metal etches like DuPont's Metal Etch or POR's Metal Ready leaving a phosphoric acid coating on the metal that will prevent flash rusting while storing. ===Preventing MIG wire rust=== Store in a bag with some dessicant packets. Here's a list of dessicants: [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_desiccants List of dessicants]. Also, can use small old refrigerator with 100 watt bulb inside, for storing rods and wires. Stays about 100 degrees. Small fan inside too. ===Preventing rust at chassis to ground connection=== Silicone dielectric grease, electrical bonding paste; spray well with clear lacquer after bonding the connection. ===Galvanization=== [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galvanization] need more info on galvanization. done before primer in commercial applications. ===Vinegar=== White vinegar can be used to remove minor rust. ===Leaf spring=== Remove rust, then, ideally, paint them separately. Re-assemble with teflon strips. ===Flooded vehicles=== Flooded vehicles can be very difficult to handle, as there can be rust in any and all places. They are best avoided, unless it's the car that you really want. ==="Oiling" your car=== In climates that are more prone to rust, cars are sometimes "oiled". Rocker panels, doors, and other body passages are drilled and sprayed inside with oil, used oil, or gelled oil substances. Entire frame and suspension are also oiled. Can be done yearly in very rust-prone climates. ===Mag wheel cleaner as rust remover?=== ===Cosmoline=== Cosmoline is a trade name for a generic rust preventative which conforms to US military specification MIL-C-11796C. It's a soft, brushable grease that's commonly used for preserving and storing firearms. What about [http://www.brownells.com/aspx/NS/store/ProductDetail.aspx?p=1134 Cosmoline] for short-term rust prevention (up to one year) on parts? Also, drilling holes in inaccessible parts (frames), and filling with Cosmoline? ===Bulk notes=== *Phosphoric acid (naval jelly, etc.) reacts with rust (iron oxide), to form iron phosphate (the black stuff that naval jelly leaves behind). Neutralize with: baking soda. *Don't ever use battery acid (sulfuric acid) to remove rust. Very dangerous to work with, and harms metal. *To keep naval jelly wet, soak some fabric in water, and lay it on the naval jelly. Can work on an incline. *Don't sit in one spot too long with a wire wheel -- it will warp the metal from the heat. *The iron phosphate coating that's left behind by rust converter is a fine base for primer. *One recommendation is: after sandblasting, remove some more of the surface metal by sanding with sandpaper. This is done to remove the salt, sand, moisture, etc. from the surface. *Molasses is thought to work, but takes a while. 1 part molasses to 10 parts water. *To remove rust: Comet/Ajax with Scotch-Brites, and then muriatic acid with scotch-brites, and then rinse and wash with Comet/Ajax again to neutralize the acid. *What's "all-metal"? Same as all-metal prep? Links to review: http://www.tfhrc.gov/pubrds/novdec98/laboratory.htm , http://www2.sherwin-williams.com/im/cs/cs-spring2003/feature-01.asp . ==Resource dump== '''Drop links in here if they're relevant to this article. They'll be reviewed, incorporated, and referenced.''' *[http://www.a2zautoforums.com/showthread.php?t=700 quarter panel rust fix] *[http://www.bhi.co.uk/hints/rust.htm Rust removal FAQ] *[http://rustbeeter.com/ Rustbeeter] *[http://science.howstuffworks.com/question445.htm How does rust work?] *http://www.corrosionsource.com/index.htm *[http://www.fertanamerica.com/ Fertan rust remover] *[http://www.safestrustremover.com/ SafestRustRemover.com] *[http://www.instructables.com/id/E17UQMY28PEQ6T2A5Z/?ALLSTEPS Electrolytic rust removal] *[http://www.hotrodders.com/forum/good-durable-paint-frame-98391-2.html rust protection paint] *http://counteractrust.com/ *http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pickling_%28metal%29 *http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pickle_liquor *http://www.novelindia.com/Stainless_Steel_Pickling_Passivation_Chemical.htm *http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muriatic_acid *[http://www.metalwebnews.com/howto/rust/rust.html rust primer] *[http://www.theruststore.com/rust_info.aspx rust removal and prevention articles] *[http://www.tinmantech.com/html/faqs.php#rust rust faqs and info] *[http://antique-engines.com/electrol.asp rust removal by electrolysis] *[http://www.rowand.net/Shop/Tools/Electrolysis.htm rust removal] *[http://www.stovebolt.com/techtips/rust/electrolytic_derusting.htm electrolytic rust removal] *[http://www.brownells.com/aspx/NS/store/ProductDetail.aspx?p=1134 Cosmoline] *http://www.jasco-help.com/products/prod_mg.htm *[http://www.restorick.com/tech/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=37 zero rust application tips] ===Related resources=== *[http://www.sizes.com/tools/sandpaper.htm Sandpaper sizes] *[http://solutions.3m.com/wps/portal/3M/en_US/Manufacturing/Industry/Product-Catalog/Abrasives/ 3M industrial abrasives] *[http://assist.daps.dla.mil/quicksearch/basic_profile.cfm?ident_number=9324 US military specification covering Cosmoline] ==References== *[http://www.hotrodders.com/forum/rust-what-acceptable-permanent-ways-get-rid-47303.html Acceptable ways to handle rust], ''Hotrodders Bulletin Board'', September 7, 2004. *[http://hotrodders.com/forum/rust-pits-39.html Rust pits], ''Hotrodders Bulletin Board'', November 27, 2001. *[http://hotrodders.com/forum/rustbusters-good-bad-40.html Rustbusters: good or bad?], ''Hotrodders Bulletin Board'', December 4, 2001. *[http://hotrodders.com/forum/rust-70.html Rust], ''Hotrodders Bulletin Board'', January 26, 2002. *[http://hotrodders.com/forum/rust-210.html Rust], ''Hotrodders Bulletin Board'', June 15, 2002. *[http://hotrodders.com/forum/pitted-rust-280.html Pitted Rust], ''Hotrodders Bulletin Board'', July 26, 2002. *[http://hotrodders.com/forum/removing-interior-rust-1664.html Removing that interior rust], ''Hotrodders Bulletin Board'', September 29, 2002. *[http://www.eastwoodco.com/jump.jsp?itemID=1476&itemType=CATEGORY&iMainCat=688&iSubCat=1476 Treating rusted body panels] ''Eastwood Company''. *[http://hotrodders.com/forum/how-do-i-address-rust-404.html How do I address rust?], ''Hotrodders Bulletin Board'', October 7, 2002. *[http://hotrodders.com/forum/rust-spot-406.html Rust spot], ''Hotrodders Bulletin Board'', October 7, 2002. *[http://hotrodders.com/forum/what-would-good-rust-proof-inside-new-panels-64093.html What would be good to rust proof the inside of new panels?], ''Hotrodders Bulletin Board'', June 11, 2005. *[http://hotrodders.com/forum/completely-covered-surface-rust-help-458.html Completely covered with surface rust...help], ''Hotrodders Bulletin Board'', October 24, 2002. *[http://hotrodders.com/forum/d-sanders-rust-461.html D/A sanders and rust], ''Hotrodders Bulletin Board'', October 25, 2002. *[http://hotrodders.com/forum/chrome-wheels-rust-634.html Chrome wheels rust], ''Hotrodders Bulletin Board'', December 9, 2002. *[http://hotrodders.com/forum/filling-up-holes-body-including-rust-holes-648.html Filling up holes in body, including rust holes], ''Hotrodders Bulletin Board'', December 12, 2002. *[http://hotrodders.com/forum/surface-rust-791.html Surface rust], ''Hotrodders Bulletin Board'', January 12, 2003. *[http://hotrodders.com/forum/rust-dimples-843.html Rust dimples], ''Hotrodders Bulletin Board'', January 20, 2003. *[http://hotrodders.com/forum/some-rust-floor-pans-suggestions-877.html Some rust in the floor pans. 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*[http://hotrodders.com/forum/primer-wont-rust-27650.html Primer that won't rust...], ''Hotrodders Bulletin Board'', November 10, 2003. *[http://hotrodders.com/forum/rust-pits-19686.html Rust pits], ''Hotrodders Bulletin Board'', July 17, 2003. *[http://hotrodders.com/forum/phosphoric-acid-prevention-flash-surface-rust-19885.html Phosphoric acid + prevention of flash/surface rust], ''Hotrodders Bulletin Board'', July 20, 2003. *[http://hotrodders.com/forum/week-later-rusting-through-zero-rust-20052.html Weeks later - rusting through the Zero Rust], ''Hotrodders Bulletin Board'', July 23, 2003. *[http://hotrodders.com/forum/how-protect-rust-until-i-paint-21663.html How to protect from rust until I paint], ''Hotrodders Bulletin Board'', August 21, 2003. *[http://hotrodders.com/forum/rustolem-24592.html Rustoleum], ''Hotrodders Bulletin Board'', September 29, 2003. *[http://hotrodders.com/forum/body-work-rust-24876.html Body work (rust)], ''Hotrodders Bulletin Board'', October 2, 2003. *[http://hotrodders.com/forum/best-blast-media-rust-removal-26861.html Best blast media for rust removal], ''Hotrodders Bulletin Board'', October 29, 2003. *[http://hotrodders.com/forum/zero-rust-28325.html Zero Rust], ''Hotrodders Bulletin Board'', November 20, 2003. *[http://hotrodders.com/forum/frame-rust-prevention-35589.html Frame rust prevention], ''Hotrodders Bulletin Board'', March 8, 2004. *[http://hotrodders.com/forum/removing-sunbaked-suface-rust-before-priming-35757.html Remove sunbaked surface rust before priming], ''Hotrodders Bulletin Board'', March 10, 2004. *[http://hotrodders.com/forum/rusted-39-ford-frame-36408.html Rusted '39 Ford frame], ''Hotrodders Bulletin Board'', March 21, 2004. *[http://hotrodders.com/forum/welding-rust-spots-floor-38798.html Welding rust spots in floor], ''Hotrodders Bulletin Board'', May 3, 2004. *[http://hotrodders.com/forum/galvanizing-frame-567.html Galvanizing a frame], ''Hotrodders Bulletin Board'', November 19, 2002. *[http://hotrodders.com/forum/gas-tank-rust-45806.html Gas tank rust], ''Hotrodders Bulletin Board'', August 17, 2004. *[http://hotrodders.com/forum/best-rust-inhibitor-40799.html Best rust inhibitor], ''Hotrodders Bulletin Board'', June 4, 2004. *[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naval_Jelly Naval Jelly], ''Wikipedia'', retrieved April 24, 2007. *[http://hotrodders.com/forum/rust-coat-primer-52865.html Rust-coat primer], ''Hotrodders Bulletin Board'', November 27, 2004. *[http://hotrodders.com/forum/chassis-rust-repair-54190.html Chassis rust repair], ''Hotrodders Bulletin Board'', December 15, 2004. *[http://hotrodders.com/forum/internal-rust-randy-ferguson-57263.html Internal rust], ''Hotrodders Bulletin Board'', February 1, 2005. *[http://hotrodders.com/forum/getting-rust-out-nooks-crannies-60460.html Getting rust out of nooks and crannies], ''Hotrodders Bulletin Board'', March 27, 2005. *[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_embrittlement Hydrogen embrittlement], ''Wikipedia'', retrieved April 24, 2007. *[http://hotrodders.com/forum/new-motor-rust-cylinder-walls-59015.html New motor, rust on cylinder walls], ''Hotrodders Bulletin Board'', March 2, 2005. *[http://hotrodders.com/forum/secrets-surface-rust-removal-revealed-55679.html Secrets of surface rust removal revealed], ''Hotrodders Bulletin Board'', January 8, 2005. *[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrochloric_acid Hydrochloric acid], ''Wikipedia'', retrieved April 24, 2007. *[http://hotrodders.com/forum/newbie-question-rust-problems-61680.html Newbie question, and rust problems], ''Hotrodders Bulletin Board'', April 21, 2005. *[http://hotrodders.com/forum/removing-rust-inside-frames-64002.html Removing rust on the inside of frames], ''Hotrodders Bulletin Board'', June 9, 2005. *[http://hotrodders.com/forum/rust-creeping-seam-what-do-do-64202.html Rust creeping from seam, what to do?], ''Hotrodders Bulletin Board'', June 13, 2005. *[http://hotrodders.com/forum/rust-removal-trick-maybe-64839.html Rust removal trick], ''Hotrodders Bulletin Board'', June 26, 2005. *[http://hotrodders.com/forum/gettin-old-rusty-spring-back-prime-shape-65335.html Getting an old rusty spring back to prime shape], ''Hotrodders Bulletin Board'', July 6, 2005. *[http://hotrodders.com/forum/rust-around-vinyl-top-66610.html Rust around the vinyl top], ''Hotrodders Bulletin Board'', July 24, 2005. *[http://hotrodders.com/forum/cure-rusty-tank-67703.html A cure for rusty tank], ''Hotrodders Bulletin Board'', August 8, 2005. *[http://hotrodders.com/forum/cleaning-old-rusty-tools-68221.html Cleaning old rusty tools], ''Hotrodders Bulletin Board'', August 15, 2005. *[http://hotrodders.com/forum/rust-proofing-oil-72414.html Rust proofing with oil], ''Hotrodders Bulletin Board'', October 19, 2005. *[http://hotrodders.com/forum/new-have-question-about-panel-rust-repair-76001.html Question about panel rust repair], ''Hotrodders Bulletin Board'', December 12, 2005. *[http://www.hotrodders.com/forum/hmmm-rust-removal-answer-please-77479-2.html Rust in flooded cars], ''Hotrodders Bulletin Board'', December 30, 2005. *[http://hotrodders.com/forum/best-way-clean-rust-chrome-78043.html Best way to clean rust from chrome], ''Hotrodders Bulletin Board'', January 6, 2006. *[http://hotrodders.com/forum/wirewheeling-rust-79024.html Wirewheeling rust], ''Hotrodders Bulletin Board'', January 16, 2006. *[http://hotrodders.com/forum/rust-pitting-82402.html Rust pitting], ''Hotrodders Bulletin Board'', February 22, 2006. *[http://hotrodders.com/forum/magic-rust-removers-82287.html Magic rust removers?]' ''Hotrodders Bulletin Board'', February 21, 2006. *[http://hotrodders.com/forum/what-spray-sandblasted-steel-kill-rust-79237.html What to spray on sandblasted steel to kill rust?] ''Hotrodders Bulletin Board'', January 19, 2006. *[http://hotrodders.com/forum/fixing-rust-between-seams-85445.html Fixing rust between seams], ''Hotrodders Bulletin Board'', March 27, 2006. *[http://hotrodders.com/forum/removing-some-kind-rust-protection-86799.html Removing rust protection], ''Hotrodders Bulletin Board'', April 13, 2006. *[http://hotrodders.com/forum/how-remove-rust-under-car-floor-87359.html How to remove rust from under car floor], ''Hotrodders Bulletin Board'', April 19, 2006. *[http://spi.forumup.org/about156-spi.html Soda blasting], ''SPI Users Forum'', February 25, 2006. *[http://hotrodders.com/forum/surface-rust-inside-door-89225.html Surface rust on inside of door], ''Hotrodders Bulletin Board'', May 12, 2006. *[http://hotrodders.com/forum/rust-pits-89610.html Rust pits], ''Hotrodders Bulletin Board'', May 17, 2006. *[http://hotrodders.com/forum/how-treat-light-body-rust-prior-epoxy-89957.html How to treat light body rust prior to epoxy], ''Hotrodders Bulletin Board'', May 21, 2006. *[http://hotrodders.com/forum/preventing-rust-ground-chasis-connections-90035.html Preventing rust at ground to chassis connections], ''Hotrodders Bulletin Board'', May 22, 2006. *[http://hotrodders.com/forum/rusteeeed-inside-outside-98470.html Rusted from the inside or outside], ''Hotrodders Bulletin Board'', September 18, 2006. *[http://hotrodders.com/forum/mig-wire-rust-103305.html MIG wire rust], ''Hotrodders Bulletin Board'', November 26, 2006. *[http://hotrodders.com/forum/cleaning-rust-off-crankshaft-106495.html Cleaning rust off crankshaft], ''Hotrodders Bulletin Board'', January 11, 2007. *[http://hotrodders.com/forum/surface-rust-prep-before-paint-question-again-94158.html Surface rust prep before paint], ''Hotrodders Bulletin Board'', July 20, 2006. *[http://hotrodders.com/forum/quick-question-about-rustoleum-97198.html Quick question about Rustoleum], ''Hotrodders Bulletin Board'', September 2, 2006. *[http://hotrodders.com/forum/solution-preventing-all-rust-96594.html Solution to preventing all rust?], ''Hotrodders Bulletin Board'', August 26, 2006. *[http://hotrodders.com/forum/save-your-rusty-floor-board-108056.html Save your rusty floor board], ''Hotrodders Bulletin Board'', February 1, 2007. *[http://hotrodders.com/forum/hard-reach-rust-104414.html Hard to reach rust], ''Hotrodders Bulletin Board'', December 13, 2006. *[http://hotrodders.com/forum/stopping-rust-inside-103320.html Stopping rust from the inside], ''Hotrodders Bulletin Board'', November 26, 2006. *[http://hotrodders.com/forum/rust-treatment-repair-109939.html Rust treatment and repair], ''Hotrodders Bulletin Board'', February 25, 2007.

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