Editing Rust

{{Newarticle}} This article is intended to act as a centralized resource for the online hotrodding community, on the subject of rust. It references *** articles, and *** forum discussions, from the following automotive forums: *******. You can add to or edit this article right now. Simply click the "edit" link to the right-hand side of any article section. For more information on editing (like how to add links and photos) see [[Help:Contents|the Help section]]. To confidently handle automotive rust, there are only 4 things you'll need to know: #What is rust, and what causes it? #What are the various chemicals, finish products, and tools used for handling rust? #What are the various methods for removing, "treating", and preventing rust? #Which method, product, and tools should be used in a specific situation? =What causes rust?= Start with this article: http://www.metalwebnews.com/howto/rust/rust.html . Plus, information on why older cars rust more quickly than newer cars: *Cars are more aggressively coated these days. Galvanizing (explain). *Steel used in cars is of a higher quality these days. *More salt is used on roads these days. =Rust assessment= ==The "best" way to handle rust== The "best" way to do something often implies the existence of the "best" conditions in regard to skill, time, and money. For example, the "best" way to handle anything more than surface rust on body panels is to liberally cut out the rusted area, and weld in a patch panel. Ideally, any metal shaping and metal finishing should be done without the use of any body filler products whatsoever. Many people don't have the necessary skill to do this. The "best" way to handle surface rust on an entire body is to have it professionally dipped, often at a cost of over $1000. This amount of money may not be available for a specific project, or it may be impractical to invest it. If you take time to properly asses your own rust situation, you can choose a well-thought out solution that's "best" for you. ==The rusted part== *Can the part be removed? How large is it? Is it small enough to be soaked? *What part is it? Is it a body panel? ==The rust itself== *Jab rusty areas with a screwdriver, scratch awl, or icepick, and see if they go through. *After cleaning rust off of floor pans, wait until it's dark, and put a trouble light under your car. Pinholes in the sheet metal will show up very well in such a situation. ==Climate and operating environment== Do you live in a climate where water or salt will be present in the air? Is it a wintery climate where snow and/or salt will be present on the roads? Near the ocean? What environment will the part be operating in? Interior of car? Undercarriage? Submerged in oil? ==Skills== Most of the skills required for removing rust are commonplace. However, certain jobs may require welding, or metal shaping. ==Tools== Besides basic hand tools, do you have access to a DA sander? Media blaster? Spot blaster? Blast cabinet? Spray gun? ==Cost== How much money do you have to put into the rust removal? What's the value of the project? Can you expect a reasonable return on your investment? ==Time== How much time can you put into the project? Both work time, and wait time. Do you have the time necessary to eliminate surface rust from a body by hand? Do you have time to drop a part into a bucket, and wait a few weeks while it soaks? ==Overall vehicle goal== What's your plan for the vehicle? What kind of abuse is it going to take, and how important are looks? Will it be a daily driver? Are you going to show it? =Rust removal, treatment, and prevention= ==Chemicals and finish products== ===Understanding "magic formula" marketing=== The market for rust removal, conversion, and encapsulation products is rife with far-fetched claims of "secret formula" rust solutions. Realistically, it's not very difficult for one company to chemically analyze another company's "secret formula", and produce an identical (or extremely similar) product. Many of the various rust removal and encapsulation products are, more or less, the same. A lot of it boils down to marketing, and the situation is only exacerbated by the fact that it's difficult to make a thorough assessment of a rust treatment product. Properly assessing a rust treatment solution would likely involve waiting several years, and then removing any outer layers of finish so that any existing underlying rust could be examined. The uneducated consumer will likely recoil at the abundance of "magic" formulas for treating rust, and revert to selecting select a safe, well-known, name-brand product line. This is a reasonable solution for many, but the name-brand rust treatment products tend to be rather expensive, especially in consideration of the fact that they are often comprised of inexpensive, common chemicals. Someone who has achieved good results with a certain combination of rust treatment products will often stay loyal to their method, without exploring other potential options that may indeed provide better results at a lower cost. ===Miscellaneous (need to be sorted)=== *[http://www.tat-co.com/product.asp?ID=154 Body-Tec amber rustproofing]. 24 oz spray can. manufac: " Light viscosity allows material to flow into hard to reach areas easily. Ideal for core supports, sheet metal, frames etc" *Amsoil HD *Slicksand *Featherfill *[http://www.krylon.com/main/product_template.cfm?levelid=5&sub_levelid=13&productid=1789&content=product_details Krylon rust tough primers] *[http://www.rustbeeter.com RustBeeter] (made from beets, maybe it's like molasses?) *Duro Extend *Devoe Bar-Rust *Loctite Extend Rust Treatment *Rustoleum (generally considered a poor choice for automotive applications. Good for cheap shop shelving, etc. *[http://www.permatex.com/products/automotive/specialized_maintenance_repair/body_interior_trim/auto_Permatex_Rust_Treatment.htm Permatex Rust Treatment] *[http://ridrust.com/ RidRust] *[http://solutions.3m.com/wps/portal/3M/en_US/3MAutomotive/Aftermarket/Products/Product-Catalog/?PC_7_0_53BC_root=GST1T4S9TCgv&PC_7_0_53BC_output=html&PC_7_0_53BC_gvel=6DTWTJQPBBgl&PC_7_0_53BC_vroot=GSLPLPKL4Xge&PC_7_0_53BC_node=GSQJ0YVJLSbe&PC_7_0_53BC_theme=en_US_aad_portal&PC_7_0_53BC_command=CustomizePageHandler Rust Fighter] *DuPont 5717S Metal Conditioner *[http://www.jasco-help.com/products/prod_mg.htm Jasco] *Prep-sol *[http://www.napasco.com/enrustreat.htm Mar-Hyde Rust Converter] *Rust N-M-E *[http://www.hammerite-automotive.com/ Hammerite] *[http://www.eurekafluidfilm.com/ Fluid Film] *Waxoyl *[http://rustonic.com Rustonic] *[http://duplicolor.com/products/rustfix.html Duplicolor Rust Fix] *[http://www.therustdoctor.com/ Rust Doctor] *[http://bluelightning.zoovy.com/product/RR32 Blue Lightning] *Picklex-20 *[http://rust007.com/knockout.htm Rust Knockout] *[http://www.napasco.com/enrustreat.htm Enrust] *[http://rust007.com/destroyerhome.htm Rust Destroyer] *Rust-Check *[http://www.evaporust.com/ Evapo-Rust Rust Remover] *[http://www.corroless.com/ Corroless] *[http://www.kleanstrip.com/special.htm Klean Strip Rust Converter] *[http://www.zerorust.com/ Zero Rust] -- [http://www.zerorust.com/tech.htm tech page], [http://www.zerorust.com/faq.htm faq]. Rust cleaning product is "prep-step", and clearcoat is called "crystal coat" *Rust Reformer *[http://www.rustbullet.com Rust Bullet] *[http://www.ospho.com/ Ospho] *Oxisolve *Rust-n-me *DuPont Metal Conditioner *PPG Metal Prep *DuPont Vari-Prime *All-Metal ===Rust removers and "converters"=== After using an acid to remove rust, flush the surface with water and baking soda (confirm or expand on this). When converting/neutralizing rust: # Get everything off first that you can by sanding and wire brushing (wire brushing will get into the pits better) # A rust converter/neutralizer containing phospheric acid or another type of acid shold be used # Be careful of getting this stuff on your concrete floor as it will bubble and decompose it # Follow the instructions on the bottle when you are done there should be a fine coating on the metal which will help prevent further rust from developing # This stuff is hard on paintbrushes (eats away the brisles) and you must be very careful of your eyes. Also it will ruin paint so again use caution. Lots of "rust neutralizers/metal etchers/floor etchers/metal conditioners" contain primarily phosphoric acid, which reacts with rust (iron oxide) to create iron phosphate, a hard black substance over which primer can be applied. Don't use battery acid (sulfuric acid) for rust removal. It's too dangerous, and there are many more effective chemicals. *[http://www.tinmantech.com/html/must_for_rust_remover_inhibi.php Must for Rust] Merchant description: removes rust and corrosion, non-caustic to skin, needs no neutralizing, primer goes right over it. $28/gallon. *[http://www.eastwoodco.com/shopping/product/detailmain.jsp?itemID=15974&itemType=PRODUCT&iMainCat=373&iSubCat=374&iProductID=15974 Eastwood Rust Converter] Merchant description: 2-part mix, adheres to bare or rusty steel, and can be topcoated with most coatings. 1 gallon each of the 2-part mix is $125. *[http://www.rust-cure.com/ Rust Cure] Merchant description: phosphoric acid-based. leaves a thin film that bonds well with most primers and paints. for pricing, need to see this page: http://rustcure.bizland.com/xwheretobuy.html . *[http://www.eastwoodco.com/jump.jsp?itemID=1124&itemType=PRODUCT Oxisolv Rust Remover] Merchant description: dissolves rust and leaves behind a zinc phosphate coating. Spray/brush/dip. Non-toxic, non-flammable, and re-usable. Must be cleaned off before priming. *[http://www.eastwoodco.com/jump.jsp?itemID=11122&itemType=PRODUCT Eastwood Rust Dissolver] Merchant description: acid free rust remover, leaves surface ready to paint, plate, or powder coat. Suitable for engine parts, and harmless to copper, brass, aluminum, solder, lead, plastic, rubber, seals, wood or vinyl. Surface must remain wet for product to work. $40/gallon. *[http://sem.ws/product.php?product_id=164 Rust-Mort] Merchant's description: "Converts rust to a black or grayish, hard, insoluble, protective coating". *[http://sem.ws/product.php?product_id=206 SEM Rust-Seal] Manufac descrip: "Transforms rust leaving a tough, permanent, black protective coating. RUST-SEAL can be left exposed or may be topcoated with enamels, lacquers or urethanes." (Make sure that none of the above count as "encapsulators". Also, what about the converters that leave a "protective film" on the metal. They say that they don't need neutralization, and they don't need to be washed off. Is this as good as cleaning to bare metal, and then hitting with epoxy primer?) *Vinegar *Muriatic acid (not for use on body panels, as it causes [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_embrittlement hydrogen embrittlement]) *Toilet cleaner (?) *Cola (?) *Phosphoric acid *Naval jelly (gelled phosphoric acid) *Mag wheel cleaner (?) *Molasses (a 1:10 solution of molasses to water can be used for soaking rusty parts) *Powdered household cleaning products such as Comet or Ajax ===Rust encapsulators=== Rust encapsulators work by sealing off existing rust, denying it the oxygen it needs to grow. The use of rust encapsulators in hotrodding is controversial. Hotrodders typically divide into 3 distinct camps over the use of rust encapsulation products: #Won't use rust encapsulation products at all. #Will use rust encapsulation products, but not on body panels. #Will use rust encapsulation products on a variety of parts, including body panels. Arguments against using rust encapsulators: *Though many rust encapsulation products carry a "lifetime warranty", such guarantees don't involve labor costs, losses, or other related costs. *For hobbyists, it's often best to stick with a single line of paint/finish products, from bare metal to clearcoat. Using most rust products means that you're outside of the product line for the rest of the finish. So, it may be physically incompatible (resulting in a poor paint job), or it may void the product warranty. *They're expensive. *The major paint manufacturers like Sherwin Williams, PPG, and DuPont don't produce a rust encapsulation product. This is thought to be because they couldn't possibly warranty such a product. *Notably, OEM manufacturers don't use rust encapsulation products. *Many rust encapsulators require the surface to be lightly rusted first for the product to properly adhere. "Inducing" rust seems wrong to people. *Rust prevention products are primarily advertised in hobbyist mags, not in periodicals read by professionals in the paint and body industry. *The thought that the rust still lurks beneath the encapsulator, and hasn't been completely eliminated, is troubling. *The cultural or conceptual notion that the rust hasn't been removed, just covered by "that black stuff". Rust encapsulation products are hard to remove from skin. Try soaking in vegetable oil for 30 minutes, or see if there is a specific solvent for the product you're using. When selecting a rust encapsulator, you will need to consider: *Product compatibility? *What can it be thinned with, and how? *How long does it take to dry/cure? *Will it fade in direct sunlight? Is there a UV topcoat available? *What colors are available? *[http://www.eastwoodco.com/shopping/product/detailmain.jsp?itemID=1137&itemType=PRODUCT&iMainCat=373&iSubCat=374&iProductID=1137 Eastwood Rust Encapsulator] Manufacturer description: encapsulates rust and primes in one step. can be used under or over body fillers. compatible with most topcoats. $100/gallon. *POR-15: "silver" POR-15? Has a filler in it for minor imperfections? *Zero Rust ===Rust preventive oils and waxes=== *[http://www.brownells.com/aspx/NS/store/ProductDetail.aspx?p=1134 Cosmoline] . "Cosmoline" is a trade name for a generic rust preventative which conforms to US military specification MIL-C-11796C. It's a soft, brushable grease that's commonly used for preserving and storing firearms. "Rated to protect polished steel panels from rust for one year in open shed storage, and 30 days, minimum, in a humidity cabinet." $30/gallon *[http://boeshield.com/index.htm Boeshield T-9] "Designed to penetrate metal pores and dissolve minor corrosion, then leave a resilient waxy coating that lasts for many months." $100/gallon *[http://www.eastwoodco.com/jump.jsp?itemID=1117&itemType=PRODUCT Eastwood Heavy-Duty Anti-Rust]. Merchant's description: spray-on brown wax film which forms an air and water-tight barrier. won't crack, flake, or peel. used for inside door panels, or to protect bare metal parts during storage. $15/quart *[http://www.oxisolv.com/html/long_term.html Oxisolv rust inhibitor long term] -- Merchant description: displaces water on metal parts to prevent rust. environmentally safe, bio-degradable, protects steel. Apply by spraying thoroughly, or dipping. *[http://sem.ws/product.php?product_id=161 SEM internal panel coating] Manufacturer description: "provides corrosion protection to inner body panels and other metal parts" *[http://solutions.3m.com/wps/portal/3M/en_US/3MAutomotive/Aftermarket/Products/Product-Catalog/?PC_7_0_53BC_root=GST1T4S9TCgv&PC_7_0_53BC_output=html&PC_7_0_53BC_gvel=6DTWTJQPBBgl&PC_7_0_53BC_vroot=GSLPLPKL4Xge&PC_7_0_53BC_node=GS3H3CPLMLbe&PC_7_0_53BC_theme=en_US_aad_portal&PC_7_0_53BC_command=CustomizePageHandler 3M Rust Fighter application wand] *[http://solutions.3m.com/wps/portal/3M/en_US/3MAutomotive/Aftermarket/Products/Product-Catalog/?PC_7_0_53BC_root=GST1T4S9TCgv&PC_7_0_53BC_output=html&PC_7_0_53BC_gvel=6DTWTJQPBBgl&PC_7_0_53BC_vroot=GSLPLPKL4Xge&PC_7_0_53BC_node=GSQJ0YVJLSbe&PC_7_0_53BC_theme=en_US_aad_portal&PC_7_0_53BC_command=CustomizePageHandler 3M Rust Fighter] ===Epoxy primer=== Epoxy primer/sealer is a non-porous finish that can typically be applied over bare steel, or the black iron phosphate coating that remains after "converting" rust. Body filler and high-build primers can be used on top of epoxy primer. Epoxy primer is a two-part mix, with a hardener that has to be added before you spray it. Thus, it's not available in a spray (rattle) can. Body filler is commonly applied to bare metal. However, applying epoxy primer before the filler adds adhesion, corrosion protection, and durability. ''list of epoxy primers goes here'' ===Seam sealers=== Seam sealers are used to seal roof channels, drip rails, trunk seams, door seams, and other body seams. They can be either one or two-part, and are typically applied over primer, sometimes with the use of a specially-designed caulking gun or spray gun. Lord Corporation makes several seam sealers: [http://www.lord.com/Home/ProductsServices/Adhesives/FusorAutomotiveAftermarketProducts/Products/SealersFoams/tabid/3402/Default.aspx Lord Corporation sealers and foams]. 3M manufactures several different types of seam sealers: [http://solutions.3m.com/wps/portal/3M/en_US/3MAutomotive/Aftermarket/Products/New-Products/?PC_7_0_5FJC_command=CustomizePageHandler&PC_7_0_5FJC_theme=en_US_aad_portal&PC_7_0_5FJC_output=html&PC_7_0_5FJC_vroot=GSLPLPKL4Xge&PC_7_0_5FJC_gvel=6DTWTJQPBBgl&PC_7_0_5FJC_node=GSWMS8NB1Nbe&PC_7_0_5FJC_root=GST1T4S9TCgv 3M seam sealers]. SEM Products makes a [http://sem.ws/product.php?product_id=269 SEM high build self-leveling seam sealer], and a [http://sem.ws/product.php?product_id=98 SEM self-leveling seam sealer]. Transtar Autobody Technologies makes a variety of seam sealers: [http://www.tat-co.com/productCategory.asp?ID=6#sub9 Transtar seam sealers]. International Epoxies and Sealers: [http://www.internationalepoxies.com/bodysealers.htm International Epoxies and Sealers body sealers]. Valvoline makes their [http://www.pliogripbyvalvoline.com/sealers_foam.html Pliogrip line of seam sealers]. Evercoat has the [http://www.evercoat.com/productCategory.aspx?cat=41 maxim line of seam sealers]. ===Metal washes, wax and grease removers=== *[http://www.eastwoodco.com/jump.jsp?itemID=258&itemType=PRODUCT&path=1%2C2%2C458%2C467%2C473&KickerID=39&KICKER Eastwood Metal Wash]. Merchant's description: dry compound that is mixed with water. removes grease and oils from bare metal, and leaves behind corrosion inhibitors that prevent flash rusting and promote paint adhesion. $11 for enough dry mix to make 7 quarts. *[http://www.aerospace.henkel.com/index.cfm?ID=178 Metalprep 79] manufac: phosphoric acid-based cleaner. leaves surface chemically clean and corrosion free. thoroughly rinse with water when done. brush/spray/dip Read this thread thoroughly: http://www.hotrodders.com/forum/what-else-wax-grease-remover-besides-mineral-spirits-51150.html The following are not to be used as metal cleaners: lacquer thinner, acetone, reducers. Use the product within the recommendations of your product system. Cleaners typically vary as to strength, and time they take to evaporate. Use clean, purpose-designed paint rags for cleaning with cleaners. ===Weld-through primer=== Weld-through primer zinc-rich coating that conducts current from a welder, and doesn't burn off when welding. It can provide protection on lap welds and inner weld seams.Weld-through primer is often applied to the mating areas when welding body panels. *3M *U-Pol ===Panel adhesives=== Used to adhere body panels, as an alternative to welding. Need more information on these. ==Tools== *Shop vac *Putty knife *Metal brush *Sand paper. 36 grit to 220 grit. *Wire wheel on drill. When the wire bristles start to bend one way, reverse the drill and work in the other direction for a while. *Wire wheel on grinder, or, these discs are considered to be superior to wire wheels: [http://solutions.3m.com/wps/portal/3M/en_US/Manufacturing/Industry/Product-Catalog/Online-Catalog/?PC_7_0_4UVL_root=GST1T4S9TCgv&PC_7_0_4UVL_output=html&PC_7_0_4UVL_gvel=H55CPWS904gl&PC_7_0_4UVL_vroot=81LC4NNTD4ge&PC_7_0_4UVL_node=RCM96XTX07be&PC_7_0_4UVL_theme=en_us_manufacturingindustry_portal&PC_7_0_4UVL_command=CustomizePageHandler 3M clean & strip disc], or [http://solutions.3m.com/wps/portal/3M/en_US/Marine/Home/Products/Catalog/?PC_7_0_4S4T_root=GST1T4S9TCgv&PC_7_0_4S4T_output=html&PC_7_0_4S4T_gvel=RJ5GMFSMV0gl&PC_7_0_4S4T_vroot=GS4JK4Y166ge&PC_7_0_4S4T_node=GSGKXWRKYVbe&PC_7_0_4S4T_theme=en_US_marineproducts_portal&PC_7_0_4S4T_command=AbcPageHandler 3M bristle disc], or [http://solutions.3m.com/wps/portal/3M/en_US/Marine/Home/Products/Catalog/?PC_7_0_4S4T_command=AbcPageHandler&PC_7_0_4S4T_theme=en_US_marineproducts_portal&PC_7_0_4S4T_output=html&PC_7_0_4S4T_vroot=GS4JK4Y166ge&PC_7_0_4S4T_gvel=RJ5GMFSMV0gl&PC_7_0_4S4T_node=GSVDY2CZYDbe&PC_7_0_4S4T_root=GST1T4S9TCgv Surface Conditioning Disc] *Scotch-brite pads *Steel toothbrush *Media blaster *Blasting cabinet *Spot blaster *Welder *Steel wool Tips *When using a wire wheel, don't sit in one spot for too long -- it will warp the metal. ==Methods== ===Body panel rust removal=== Ideally, only surface rust on body panels is "treated". Anything more than that would mean that the affected area would be cut out, and replaced with fresh metal. ====Removing surface rust from body panels==== First, remove all the heavy surface rust with a DA sander and 80-180 grit paper. To remove surface rust, use naval jelly (jelled phosphoric acid) and steel wool. #Work in small areas, not larger than a square foot. Wear rubber gloves, and scrub with naval jelly and steel wool. #Apply jelly with 000 steel wool, rub it in, and allow it to set for a couple of minutes. Don't let it dry. Keep it wet, using a squirt bottle. For inclines, you can also soak some fabric in water, and lay it on the naval jelly. #Rub again with steel wool. Repeat a few times. #When finished, wipe off the excess naval jelly with a paper towel, squirt on warm soapy water, and dry thoroughly. #Wipe down with lacquer thinner. #Sand with 180 grit. #Use wax and grease remover, and then spray with epoxy primer. #From there, you can apply body filler (the epoxy may need to be scuffed, read instructions) #When the filler work is done, scuff with a red scotch-brite pad. #Then, apply two more coats of epoxy, followed by high-build primer. ====Treating light body rust (from storing panels) prior to epoxy==== Sand with 80 grit, wash with wax and grease remover. Use waterborne wax and grease remover, instead of solvent-borne (research exactly what that means), let set 15-30 minutes. Dry with a blower and a tack rag. Spray epoxy. ====Getting the entire vehicle body dipped==== Need more info on Redi-Strip. What chemical do they use? What's the cost? Can a hobbyist acquire and use the same chemical that Redi-Strip uses? When the body is returned to you, is it truly completely clean, or does it have to be cleaned to get all of the chemical removed from nooks and crannies, etc.? ====Quick fix for exposed areas (dents, etc.)==== If a dent causes an area of bare metal to be exposed. To "hold" it so it won't rust until a paint job is ready to be done: gently bump out the dent, sand, rattle can primer, rattle can sealer. ====Do both sides of a panel have to be treated with rust converter/encapsulator?==== Explain this. ====Removing pitted rust in body panels==== After removing all surface rust, treat with metal prep, wash, dry, sand, prime, fill the pits with polyester putty (or Evercoat's Metal 2 Metal), then smooth and prime again. A spot blaster is useful for this: silica as the medium. Grinding wheel, die grinder. Or, repeatedly prime with a high build primer and block sand. You may have to prime/block several times to get the pitted area up to the same level as the surface around it. Sprayable body filler, called "SlickSand"? From Evercoat? Like a "very high build primer"? Hard, but sands easy. Let naval jelly sit on the pitted area overnight, if possible. Cover naval jelly with plastic wrap to keep it from drying out overnight. Heat the pitted area until it glows, and then cool it with oil on a rag. Clean with wax/grease remover, scuff, prime, paint. Just for small areas, because it causes wrinkles and shrink marks. Product recommendation: Featherfill? ====Fixing rust holes in body panels==== Grind down all the paint and rust from around the hole. Clamp a piece of copper to the other side (roof flashing, penny, etc.). Then, fill in the hole with a MIG welder. When done, unclamp the copper -- it won't stick to the panel. Also, it absorbs the heat, so the panel won't warp as much. Rust pinholes are hard to repair with a welder because the "holes" are actually "craters". The hole is the bottom of a craterlike thinned out area of metal. Will brass work too? What about drilling and patching pinholes? ====Storing body panels==== Use epoxy primer (AKA epoxy primer/sealer), it won't allow rust. Not the same as regular primer. Wet-sand down to 400 grit, wash/dry, grind down rust to bare metal, apply body filler where needed, blow off, clean with prep-sol or similar cleaner, tape it up, and prime with epoxy primer. ====Removing rust in seams==== A spot blaster is useful. To do it right, you will generally need to pull the seam apart, remove the rust, and then hit it with a rust conversion product. However, sometimes you can open up the layers slightly with a hammer and putty knife used between the spotwelds. Bend the flange open, media blast into the seam, clean, prime with epoxy primer, brush in urethane seam sealer, and close the seam back up. If the seam is not accessible, flood it with a penetrating cavity wax, like 3M's Rustfighter. ====Accessing rust between interior panels==== Pressure washer with pencil tip can knock everything loose out. Drill small holes, get a spray wand with a 360-degree head. Then, when done, weld the holes shut. Turn panels around to slosh rust remover around. Blow compressed air inside the panel. Cut hole in panel? Spray rust killer with garden sprayer? A mirror can be used to check areas for rust. Don't spray expanding foam. It absorbs water, and will cause more rust. It can also expand and cause the panels to push out. ====How to treat rusty drip-rails?==== #blast #wash with wax and grease remover #spray with 2 coats of epoxy #spray with seam sealer ====Plasma spray welding==== With plasma spray welding, metal wire is converted to sprayable form, and used to repair rust holes, fill panel joints, and blend patch panels. One example is the machine sold by [http://www.rustbustersllc.com Rustbusters]. ====Rusted window channels==== Difficult to fabricate, need more info on this. ===Vinyl tops=== Rust is common in vinyl tops. The vinyl gets porous after a few years, and lets in moisture. How to prevent? ===Leaf spring rust=== Remove rust, then, ideally, paint them separately. Re-assemble with teflon strips. ===Preventing rust at chassis to ground connection=== Silicone dielectric grease, electrical bonding paste; spray well with clear lacquer after bonding the connection. ===Cleaning light surface rust off crankshaft=== Have a machine shop do it, or: #Very fine steel wool or scotchbrite pad, and light oil. Rub around the journals in the direction of rotation, not across. OR #Cut 600 grip wet or dry sandpaper into strips the width of the crank journals. Wrap it around the journal, and secure it with tape. Then, make a strap from leather, about one-half the width of the sandpaper strips. Use the strap on the paper in a shoeshine motion. Finish off with some light oil on the sandpaper. Do a few strokes first, then clean the paper, because the rust will clog the sandpaper. LP3 as rust inhibitor on crankshafts? ===Electrolysis=== Removing rust with electrolysis -- research this: http://www.stovebolt.com/techtips/rust/electrolytic_derusting.htm , http://hotrodders.com/forum/rust-removal-lower-arms-other-suspension-parts-108384.html , http://www.davidbradley.net/ERR.html , http://antique-engines.com/trailer-electrolysis.htm . ===How to remove rust from chrome=== Use mag wheel polish, fine steel wool, crumpled-up pieces of aluminum foil. ===Preventing engine rust=== Engine storage spray, or wipe down with [http://www.marvelmysteryoil.com/ Marvel Mystery Oil]. Cylinder walls with flash rust: marvel mystery oil, steel wool, etc. Pitted rusting will necessitate a rebuild. ===How to de-rust gas tanks=== Put a handful of nuts and bolts in, chain, chainsaw blade, etc., and shake it around a bit to knock out the loose stuff. Not too aggressive -- you'll dent the tank. Then, clean with phosphoric acid. Pour it in, let it sit for up to an hour, then flush with water and baking soda to neutralize. Or, Eastwood has a kit for this: an acid to clean it, and then something to coat it with. However, some people say that the coating can clog up the fuel filter, or trash your OEM sending unit. The best way to do it is to take it out and get it re-tinned. ===How to clean engine water jackets or radiator of rust=== Flush with CLR, Kool Klean (can't find). Manufacturers of CLR say that it shouldn't be used in a radiator: http://www.jelmar.com/CLRbasic.asp . When building an engine, to prevent rust: when done washing it and blowing it dry, oil it down, and store it in a plastic bag -- sealed (confirm this). ==="Oiling" your car=== In climates that are more prone to rust, cars are sometimes "oiled". Rocker panels, doors, and other body passages are drilled and sprayed inside with oil, used oil, or gelled oil substances. Entire frame and suspension are also oiled. Can be done yearly in very rust-prone climates. Historically, this procedure has been used before driving the car down a dirt road. The dirt sticks to the oil on the underside of the vehicle, providing an effective sealing layer. Consider how, when removing a dirty, oily gasket, the metal beneath it is clean. Same concept. Now, this might be done with an application-specific undercarriage wax or oil. ===Preventing MIG wire rust=== Store in a bag with some dessicant packets. Here's a list of dessicants: [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_desiccants List of dessicants]. Also, can use small old refrigerator with 100 watt bulb inside, for storing rods and wires. Stays about 100 degrees. Small fan inside too. ===Underside rust removal=== Best not to do this as overhead work. Tilt the car on a rotisserie, or raise it significantly overhead. Another option is to keep the car low to the ground, and, with plastic sheeting and duct tape, seal the area between car and floor. Leave the rear area of the plastic "tent" open for access. At the front of the "tent", affix a shop vac hose (exhaust). Blast. ===Rustproofing brake rotors=== Zinc dip, also Eastwood has some solutions? Research this. ===Axle tube rust=== When rebuilding a rear end, the rust can be cleaned out with naval jelly/shoving rags down it with a broomstick. ===Cleaning hand tools=== Tumble in a cement mixer with oil and sand. Or, soak in a bucket with parts cleaner or paint thinner. ===Electronic rust inhibition=== *[http://www.counteractrust.com/ CounterAct Electronic Rust Protection]? *[http://www.ruststopnorthamerica.com/electronic-rustproofing-rust-proofing.htm Rust Stop North America] This is known as [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cathodic_protection cathodic protection]? Research this. And: [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacrificial_anode sacrificial anode] and [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galvanic_anode galvanic anode]. ===Frame rust=== Sandblasting or dipping is best. Then, stripping wheel or wire wheel is next-best. Can be professionally sandblasted and powder-coated for ~$250 at a good price. Patching is usually not worthwhile, unless it's a special or valuable frame. Too easy to replace, and too much potential structural damage. Has to be done perfectly. Can be replaced with steel of the same gauge as the original frame, and welded in to place. Where is the rust on the frame? In a critical stress area? How bad is it? For minor surface rusting, with mostly metal showing through, it's OK to just powder-coat it. OR: #blast/wire wheel #phosphoric acid #clean off acid with thinner #etching primer #epoxy primer ====Cleaning the inside of a boxed, open-ended frame==== Blow out all the dirt, etc. Then, attach a strong towel to some strong cord. Soak the towel with rust treatment chemical, and pull it through the frame. ===Media blasting rust=== *Sand is not recommended for media blasting panels. It acts like little hammers, warping panels with compressive forces (analagous to hail). Technically, it can be done, but extreme caution must be used. *Use softer media (list examples): **55 grit silica-based media **[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sugar_sand Sugar sand] is finer and less-damaging than regular sand. *Can sandblasting "increase" rust? Or, if the rust is removed and the metal is sealed, shouldn't it be eliminated? Some thoughts on this are: **Although sandblasting may appear to have removed all the rust to the naked eye, it hasn't really done so. **It's caused by water in the air compressor line, as sand will harbor some moisture. Also, compressed air contains moisture. And, sand has salt in it. A moisture trap in the line should solve the problem with the water in the air line. **Sand by hand after sandblasting, to eliminate this issue. *Many panels have seams, hems, and bends that are inaccessible by blasting, and can hold moisture and rust. A spot blaster is recommended. *One option is to use chemical paint stripper, then use a sandblaster to lightly "dust" the remaining rust. *Media blasting can remove good metal from body panels too. Also, used media can have metal particles left in the media. *Soda blasting can remove light rust, and won't warp panels. However, when soda blasting body panels, the resultant film can negatively affect finish adhesion. Epoxy primer can peel off. Soda blast medium must be "neutralized". 24 or 36 grit grinder, followed by warm water with soap. Do this with a scuff pad, and rinse thoroughly. Some finish companies specifically advise against the use of their products on soda-blasted finishes, which makes its use contentious. =Miscellaneous= ==Flooded vehicles== Flooded vehicles can be very difficult to handle, as there can be rust in any and all places. They are best avoided, unless it's the car that you really want. ==Fiberglass resin patches== One technique that has been recommended is to grind/clean the rust, tape the underside of the panel to be patched, and then fill the holes with fiberglass resin, then paint and undercoat. This trick is not really a good idea -- when the body flexes, there will be cracks in the fiberglass pieces. Metal also expands at different rates than fiberglass, causing cracks to form, allowing more rust to form in these cracks. ==Do metal etches leave coating?== Follow up on metal etches like DuPont's Metal Etch or POR's Metal Ready leaving a phosphoric acid coating on the metal that will prevent flash rusting while storing. ==How to remove rust protection== How to remove old rust protection finishes? Or undercoating? *Wire wheel *Brake cleaner *Kerosene *Heat gun *EZ-Off oven cleaner *Mineral spirits *Freeze with dry ice, then chisel out *Wallpaper steamer ==What about riveting in patch panels?== Very low-end solution, like fiberglass patching metal. Panel adhesives are a better choice when you can't weld. =Resource dump= '''Drop links in here if they're relevant to this article. They'll be reviewed, incorporated, and referenced.''' *[http://www.a2zautoforums.com/showthread.php?t=700 quarter panel rust fix] *[http://www.bhi.co.uk/hints/rust.htm Rust removal FAQ] *[http://rustbeeter.com/ Rustbeeter] *[http://science.howstuffworks.com/question445.htm How does rust work?] *http://www.corrosionsource.com/index.htm *[http://www.fertanamerica.com/ Fertan rust remover] *[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galvanization Galvanization] *[http://www.safestrustremover.com/ SafestRustRemover.com] *[http://www.instructables.com/id/E17UQMY28PEQ6T2A5Z/?ALLSTEPS Electrolytic rust removal] *[http://www.hotrodders.com/forum/good-durable-paint-frame-98391-2.html rust protection paint] *http://counteractrust.com/ *http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pickling_%28metal%29 *http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pickle_liquor *[http://www.finishing.com/116/94.shtml e-coating] *http://www.novelindia.com/Stainless_Steel_Pickling_Passivation_Chemical.htm *[http://www.metalwebnews.com/howto/rust/rust.html rust primer] *[http://www.theruststore.com/rust_info.aspx rust removal and prevention articles] *[http://www.tinmantech.com/html/faqs.php#rust rust faqs and info] *[http://antique-engines.com/electrol.asp rust removal by electrolysis] *[http://www.rowand.net/Shop/Tools/Electrolysis.htm rust removal] *[http://www.stovebolt.com/techtips/rust/electrolytic_derusting.htm electrolytic rust removal] *[http://www.brownells.com/aspx/NS/store/ProductDetail.aspx?p=1134 Cosmoline] *http://www.jasco-help.com/products/prod_mg.htm *[http://www.restorick.com/tech/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=37 zero rust application tips] =Related resources= *[http://www.sizes.com/tools/sandpaper.htm Sandpaper sizes] *[http://solutions.3m.com/wps/portal/3M/en_US/Manufacturing/Industry/Product-Catalog/Abrasives/ 3M industrial abrasives] *[http://assist.daps.dla.mil/quicksearch/basic_profile.cfm?ident_number=9324 US military specification covering Cosmoline] =References= *[http://www.hotrodders.com/forum/rust-what-acceptable-permanent-ways-get-rid-47303.html Acceptable ways to handle rust], ''Hotrodders Bulletin Board'', September 7, 2004. *[http://hotrodders.com/forum/rust-pits-39.html Rust pits], ''Hotrodders Bulletin Board'', November 27, 2001. *[http://hotrodders.com/forum/rustbusters-good-bad-40.html Rustbusters: good or bad?], ''Hotrodders Bulletin Board'', December 4, 2001. *[http://hotrodders.com/forum/rust-70.html Rust], ''Hotrodders Bulletin Board'', January 26, 2002. *[http://hotrodders.com/forum/rust-210.html Rust], ''Hotrodders Bulletin Board'', June 15, 2002. *[http://hotrodders.com/forum/pitted-rust-280.html Pitted Rust], ''Hotrodders Bulletin Board'', July 26, 2002. *[http://hotrodders.com/forum/removing-interior-rust-1664.html Removing that interior rust], ''Hotrodders Bulletin Board'', September 29, 2002. *[http://www.eastwoodco.com/jump.jsp?itemID=1476&itemType=CATEGORY&iMainCat=688&iSubCat=1476 Treating rusted body panels] ''Eastwood Company''. *[http://hotrodders.com/forum/how-do-i-address-rust-404.html How do I address rust?], ''Hotrodders Bulletin Board'', October 7, 2002. *[http://hotrodders.com/forum/rust-spot-406.html Rust spot], ''Hotrodders Bulletin Board'', October 7, 2002. *[http://hotrodders.com/forum/what-would-good-rust-proof-inside-new-panels-64093.html What would be good to rust proof the inside of new panels?], ''Hotrodders Bulletin Board'', June 11, 2005. *[http://hotrodders.com/forum/completely-covered-surface-rust-help-458.html Completely covered with surface rust...help], ''Hotrodders Bulletin Board'', October 24, 2002. *[http://hotrodders.com/forum/d-sanders-rust-461.html D/A sanders and rust], ''Hotrodders Bulletin Board'', October 25, 2002. *[http://hotrodders.com/forum/chrome-wheels-rust-634.html Chrome wheels rust], ''Hotrodders Bulletin Board'', December 9, 2002. *[http://hotrodders.com/forum/filling-up-holes-body-including-rust-holes-648.html Filling up holes in body, including rust holes], ''Hotrodders Bulletin Board'', December 12, 2002. *[http://hotrodders.com/forum/surface-rust-791.html Surface rust], ''Hotrodders Bulletin Board'', January 12, 2003. *[http://hotrodders.com/forum/rust-dimples-843.html Rust dimples], ''Hotrodders Bulletin Board'', January 20, 2003. *[http://hotrodders.com/forum/some-rust-floor-pans-suggestions-877.html Some rust in the floor pans. 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*[http://hotrodders.com/forum/gas-tank-rust-45806.html Gas tank rust], ''Hotrodders Bulletin Board'', August 17, 2004. *[http://hotrodders.com/forum/best-rust-inhibitor-40799.html Best rust inhibitor], ''Hotrodders Bulletin Board'', June 4, 2004. *[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naval_Jelly Naval Jelly], ''Wikipedia'', retrieved April 24, 2007. *[http://hotrodders.com/forum/rust-coat-primer-52865.html Rust-coat primer], ''Hotrodders Bulletin Board'', November 27, 2004. *[http://hotrodders.com/forum/chassis-rust-repair-54190.html Chassis rust repair], ''Hotrodders Bulletin Board'', December 15, 2004. *[http://hotrodders.com/forum/internal-rust-randy-ferguson-57263.html Internal rust], ''Hotrodders Bulletin Board'', February 1, 2005. *[http://hotrodders.com/forum/getting-rust-out-nooks-crannies-60460.html Getting rust out of nooks and crannies], ''Hotrodders Bulletin Board'', March 27, 2005. *[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_embrittlement Hydrogen embrittlement], ''Wikipedia'', retrieved April 24, 2007. *[http://hotrodders.com/forum/new-motor-rust-cylinder-walls-59015.html New motor, rust on cylinder walls], ''Hotrodders Bulletin Board'', March 2, 2005. *[http://hotrodders.com/forum/secrets-surface-rust-removal-revealed-55679.html Secrets of surface rust removal revealed], ''Hotrodders Bulletin Board'', January 8, 2005. *[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrochloric_acid Hydrochloric acid], ''Wikipedia'', retrieved April 24, 2007. *[http://hotrodders.com/forum/newbie-question-rust-problems-61680.html Newbie question, and rust problems], ''Hotrodders Bulletin Board'', April 21, 2005. *[http://hotrodders.com/forum/removing-rust-inside-frames-64002.html Removing rust on the inside of frames], ''Hotrodders Bulletin Board'', June 9, 2005. *[http://hotrodders.com/forum/rust-creeping-seam-what-do-do-64202.html Rust creeping from seam, what to do?], ''Hotrodders Bulletin Board'', June 13, 2005. *[http://hotrodders.com/forum/rust-removal-trick-maybe-64839.html Rust removal trick], ''Hotrodders Bulletin Board'', June 26, 2005. *[http://hotrodders.com/forum/gettin-old-rusty-spring-back-prime-shape-65335.html Getting an old rusty spring back to prime shape], ''Hotrodders Bulletin Board'', July 6, 2005. *[http://hotrodders.com/forum/rust-around-vinyl-top-66610.html Rust around the vinyl top], ''Hotrodders Bulletin Board'', July 24, 2005. *[http://hotrodders.com/forum/cure-rusty-tank-67703.html A cure for rusty tank], ''Hotrodders Bulletin Board'', August 8, 2005. *[http://hotrodders.com/forum/cleaning-old-rusty-tools-68221.html Cleaning old rusty tools], ''Hotrodders Bulletin Board'', August 15, 2005. *[http://hotrodders.com/forum/rust-proofing-oil-72414.html Rust proofing with oil], ''Hotrodders Bulletin Board'', October 19, 2005. *[http://hotrodders.com/forum/new-have-question-about-panel-rust-repair-76001.html Question about panel rust repair], ''Hotrodders Bulletin Board'', December 12, 2005. 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2006. *[http://hotrodders.com/forum/removing-some-kind-rust-protection-86799.html Removing rust protection], ''Hotrodders Bulletin Board'', April 13, 2006. *[http://hotrodders.com/forum/how-remove-rust-under-car-floor-87359.html How to remove rust from under car floor], ''Hotrodders Bulletin Board'', April 19, 2006. *[http://spi.forumup.org/about156-spi.html Soda blasting], ''SPI Users Forum'', February 25, 2006. *[http://hotrodders.com/forum/surface-rust-inside-door-89225.html Surface rust on inside of door], ''Hotrodders Bulletin Board'', May 12, 2006. *[http://hotrodders.com/forum/rust-pits-89610.html Rust pits], ''Hotrodders Bulletin Board'', May 17, 2006. *[http://hotrodders.com/forum/how-treat-light-body-rust-prior-epoxy-89957.html How to treat light body rust prior to epoxy], ''Hotrodders Bulletin Board'', May 21, 2006. *[http://hotrodders.com/forum/preventing-rust-ground-chasis-connections-90035.html Preventing rust at ground to chassis connections], ''Hotrodders Bulletin Board'', May 22, 2006. *[http://hotrodders.com/forum/rusteeeed-inside-outside-98470.html Rusted from the inside or outside], ''Hotrodders Bulletin Board'', September 18, 2006. *[http://hotrodders.com/forum/mig-wire-rust-103305.html MIG wire rust], ''Hotrodders Bulletin Board'', November 26, 2006. *[http://hotrodders.com/forum/cleaning-rust-off-crankshaft-106495.html Cleaning rust off crankshaft], ''Hotrodders Bulletin Board'', January 11, 2007. *[http://hotrodders.com/forum/surface-rust-prep-before-paint-question-again-94158.html Surface rust prep before paint], ''Hotrodders Bulletin Board'', July 20, 2006. *[http://hotrodders.com/forum/quick-question-about-rustoleum-97198.html Quick question about Rustoleum], ''Hotrodders Bulletin Board'', September 2, 2006. *[http://hotrodders.com/forum/solution-preventing-all-rust-96594.html Solution to preventing all rust?], ''Hotrodders Bulletin Board'', August 26, 2006. *[http://hotrodders.com/forum/save-your-rusty-floor-board-108056.html Save your rusty floor board], ''Hotrodders Bulletin Board'', February 1, 2007. *[http://hotrodders.com/forum/hard-reach-rust-104414.html Hard to reach rust], ''Hotrodders Bulletin Board'', December 13, 2006. *[http://hotrodders.com/forum/stopping-rust-inside-103320.html Stopping rust from the inside], ''Hotrodders Bulletin Board'', November 26, 2006. *[http://hotrodders.com/forum/rust-treatment-repair-109939.html Rust treatment and repair], ''Hotrodders Bulletin Board'', February 25, 2007.

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