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| − | ==Terminology==
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| − | Jon
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| − | There seems to be an impasse as to whether "bell housing" (two words) is the preferred term, or if "bellhousing" is correct (pls. refer to [http://www.crankshaftcoalition.com/wiki/index.php?title=Transmission_holding_fixtures&action=history History]). I would appreciate it if a determination would be made on the preferred terminology for bell/housing.
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| − | Thanks--[[User:Cobalt327|Cobalt327]] 18:44, 9 February 2012 (MST)
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| − | :I'm not finding a clear answer either way. Some words or phrases have multiple acceptable spellings, and it looks like this is one of them. Same with rearend or "rear end".--[[User:Jon|Jon]] 19:43, 9 February 2012 (MST)
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| − | ::OK then, either is acceptable. I have edited the text I submitted to the way I originally submitted it. Member Neighbors can deal with editing to his material if he so chooses.
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| − | ::As a "professional courtesy" I'd appreciate it if 'bellhousing' in the text I submitted not be edited further.--[[User:Cobalt327|Cobalt327]] 20:34, 9 February 2012 (MST)
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| − | :::I'm fine with either, but keep in mind that, especially with undefined issues like this one, influence over an article is usually proportional to editing contributions. So if it's an undecided formatting or verbiage issue, whoever is the current most significant contributor to an article will likely have the greatest hand in steering its development.--[[User:Jon|Jon]] 23:06, 9 February 2012 (MST)
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| − | ::::For the record I've found instances where companies have used both terms. Actually that isn't much of a surprise, seeing as how that's [http://www.crankshaftcoalition.com/wiki/images/9/92/Snap1_%282%29.jpg seen often] anyway.--[[User:Cobalt327|Cobalt327]] 12:40, 10 February 2012 (MST)
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| − | :::::'''What''' I wonder is does Cobalt327 understand that any person on the WIKI can edit any article? The information he has contributed is now a part of the Wiki data base forever and not his personal article only , not to be touched by outside people. I gather this question from Cobalt327's comments on how Neighbors can handle the edits on the information he posted with photos. The Photos posted by Neighbors are also under the question : are they copy righted material. They need further research
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| − | :::::I prefer bell housing and '''will edit any item''' on the Wiki I decide to. '''Where''' do we stop the discussion on terminology ? As an example Is it '''disc''' brakes or '''disk''' brakes?
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| − | :::::As for accuracy and the good of the Wiki... the words bell housing or bellhousing , I hope that would not confuse people. Both are accurate and convey the same meaning.
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| − | :::::I created the article on transmission fixture devices to answer questions on the main Hotrodders forums...
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| − | ==Purpose-built fixture for engine stand==
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| − | I also question the use of the fixture suggested by Neighbors. If not properly supported the bell housing will crack under the weight of the transmission.--[[User:Crosley|Crosley]] 17:16, 10 February 2012 (MST)
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| − | ::If both of you guys are in agreement about removing or altering the details about the fixture posted by Neighbors, then go ahead and address it. You can remove the images, move them to this talk page, put a note in the article that the efficacy and/or safety of that specific fixture is disputed, put a note on Neighbors's talk page, etc. -- whatever you think is best. Regarding the issue of "bellhousing" vs. "bell housing", I understand it to be a toss-up, based on personal preference. In such a situation, control of the terminology goes to whoever is currently the most significant contributor to an article. This is not a perfect solution, but I do believe it to be more or less fair. Wiki has a huge advantage over forums in that you can have a heated, no-holds-barred debate on an article's talk page, while the article itself remains pristine and and professional.--[[User:Jon|Jon]] 11:01, 12 February 2012 (MST)
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| − | :::I concede to whatever Crosley decides on bell housing/bellhousing on this article, as he is the originator and main contributor. I also believe there's room for using either/or, depending.
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| − | :::As to the SolidWorks software rendering (or whatever program was used) of the 'Purpose-built fixture for engine stand' by member Neighbors, I did a search using several terms in both Google web and Google images and did not find it. That type of program is readily available to students and others, and in that it seems to lack some fundamental elements to be used as it's presented here, I'd tend to believe that it was done by that member.
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| − | :::I agree there is a definite safety concern if supporting the weight of the transmission by only two bolt holes. As far as the fixture itself I can understand the concept but I cannot visualize how it would work as it's currently presented. It would seem that the transmission would be not be held level '''or''' straight up and down judging by the angle of the fixture.
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| − | :::In any event I support any or all of Jon's suggestions as how to proceed.
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| − | ::::Seems like the next step is to ask Neighbors about the fixture.--[[User:Jon|Jon]] 15:39, 12 February 2012 (MST)
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| − | :::::Done.--[[User:Cobalt327|Cobalt327]] 16:16, 12 February 2012 (MST)
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| − | ::::::Until such time there's a response from Neighbors, I've removed the questionable text and images from the Transmission holding fixtures page.--[[User:Cobalt327|Cobalt327]] 17:59, 22 February 2012 (MST)
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| − | ::::::'''Purpose-built fixture for engine stand'''
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| − | ::::::The fixture below is currently under review due to safety concerns. Proceed with extreme caution.
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| − | ::::::Universal fixture to use in existing engine stands; allows transmission to be rotated and pinned in position. Made from readily available material, plate is match drilled and tapped for each transmission 'family', and transmission is secured using two bell housing bolts. Allows full access to pump and valve body.
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| − | ::::::<gallery>
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| − | File:Weldment, Trans fixture iso.jpg
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| − | File:Weldment, Transmission fixture.jpg
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| − | </gallery>
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| − | ==Continuing discussion re 'Purpose-built fixture for engine stand'==
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| − | Jon, all:
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| − | Jon,
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| − | Just stopped back by to look at a few things, noticed the transmission fixture I uploaded had a bit of discussion followed by removal. I don't know how to join the conversation there (Aha! Got it now!), but let me relay a few things if I might add. I use the fixture almost daily, and have so for the last ten years when I built the thing (based on a old OTC catalogue I saw some years ago). I've used the fixture on everything from C4's to E4OD's without a single incident (save for the E4 being too long to rotate 360*, LOL!). The drawing is in AutoCAD, FWIW. I'm a mechanical engineer by trade with 23 years experience designing seismic equipment (off-road vibrators, marine streamers), diesel-electric hybrid buses, and been a fairly active car guy for over 33 years (do quite a bit of trans work, rear end work, SFC's, rollbars and cages, make disc brake conversion brackets, and a -very- good reputation for my quality, performance, and value)...
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| − | I'm leary of some of the other suggestions on the fixture page (a bucket?! Come on...), and am confident by design and use that the fixture I detailed and uploaded is safe and sound...the span of the fixture picks up half the bellhousing, and uses as many holes as it can pick up (based on your trans BP; I typically only use two for AOD/4R's, TH350-700R4, but three on the E4). The trans his very nearly vertical and horizontal (left to the skill and accuracy of the folks laying the holes out). Care for some pictures?
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| − | I post my material, that I create. Original drawing, photos, etc.
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| − | As for the choice of terms, I prefer 'bellhousing', but at times do make a typo or eight...
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| − | Best regards,
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| − | Chris Neighbors--[[Special:Contributions/98.198.153.123|98.198.153.123]] 14:04, 30 August 2012 (MDT)
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| − | :Hi Chris, I'm Mark, aka Cobalt327. Thanks for getting back to the wiki on the fixture. I believe if there were detailed images showing how the fixture works (like how the case mounts up and/or a rendering showing the fixture holding a transmission), that would go a long way towards understanding its functionality and may well address the safety concerns as well.
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| − | :I have noted your safety concerns regarding the bucket; they are duly noted. I have a similar concern using a cracked case as well, but in that I did not originate the article I opted to let it be. In hindsight, this may have been a disservice to the readers due to safety concerns every bit as real as those envisioned to be present with your design. I am currently weighing my options as to how to proceed on that front.
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| − | :{{Note1}}The wiki is a work in progress. '''''You have every bit the same right to edit/modify/add/subtract material as I or anyone else has'''''. The unofficial motto here is "Be Bold". So it is up to you as to how you'd like to proceed. I guess what I'm saying is it's up to YOU to edit as you see fit, because with all due respect no one else is likely to do it for you. ;) --[[User:Cobalt327|Cobalt327]] 18:37, 30 August 2012 (MDT)
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| − | ::Mark,
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| − | ::Thanks for the follow-up; I had forgotten about the fixture until I saw a link somewhere again. I'll try and upload a few pictures when I get some free time (I run a pretty tight, full schedule, and have to plan three months in advance, LOL!). Spanning half the case makes the thing fairly stiff (and as a point of reference, a 3/8" NC bolt will handle 9204 lbs before yielding; course the threads will strip a bit sooner than that); hard to run numbers on a case, but keep in mind the case is that size for two reasons: 1. clear the converter, 2. supports -all- the transmission load and roughly a third of the engine load in -bending- at the mating surface.
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| − | ::I don't use cracked cases at all; far to easy to find a good replacement...
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| − | ::I realize it's hard to be safe, consistent, and fair in a public domain like this; every issue is a wrestling match that I don't envy you over. But, we're all here to share and learn, using the sense that we have; in the end, regardless of what you read, you are ultimately responsible for your choices. Now, if everything we do has to have legaleze added, the I/we can do that as well (I have at at-home attorney turned techncal writer). It's a shame we have to stoop to such things, but as a disclaimer, all parties are responsible for their own actions...
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| − | ::Per the disclaimer below on this page: "You are also promising us that you wrote this yourself, or copied it from a public domain or similar free resource. Do not submit copyrighted work without permission!" I didn't notice too many copyrights to images posted (fastener stuff for example), or credits there. Not starting any trouble, just curious about the procedure for handling this, and proper public disclosure (I always use my own images, but if I don't, make sure the image has a copyright tag on it)...
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| − | ::I respect others input, and don't change/edit/delete their efforts, but do not mind having discussions about issues.
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| − | ::In the end this forum is to help folks; I do that often, sometimes to an excess, with design work, labor, parts, fabrication, etc. To be brutally honest (and rhetorical), if my first attempt at input here causes grief for you guys (I understand that), and upon review it appears inconsistent in nature, why should I feel inclined to offer any more input? I've written quite a few things (do a search of my name and gear install, T5 rebuild for examples), and post info and designs pretty freely; would like to continue here as well...
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| − | ::Chris--[[Special:Contributions/98.198.153.123|98.198.153.123]] 12:27, 31 August 2012 (MDT)
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| − | :::There was no grief caused, only some concern over how the fixture worked in a practical, real-world setting as opposed to the rendering that was submitted that left questions as to the "how" of it all. FWIW, the original text and images were left intact for some time after the concerns were initially raised in the hopes that you'd see the discussion page of the article or the request left on your [http://www.crankshaftcoalition.com/wiki/User_talk:Neighbors user talk page] asking for further clarification. In that this wasn't forthcoming (I realize you have other things to deal with- as we all do), the call was made to set the fixture text and images aside until you responded. Now that you have responded I see no reason the section cannot be returned to the article once it's seen or explained just how it holds the case, etc.
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| − | :::BTW, disregard if you already understood this, but the reference above about my concern using a cracked case wasn't about using one in service, my concern was in using a cracked case for a transmission stand. In my opinion the crack- located as it is in the photo below- could well spread and drop everything onto the floor- or onto someone.
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| − | :::[[File:C4 trans build.jpg]]
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| − | :::--[[User:Cobalt327|Cobalt327]] 13:35, 31 August 2012 (MDT)
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| − | ::::ROFLOL! Yes, I see now, and forgot that one! The bad thing about the bucket, case, or engine stand (using the head), is you can't access both the VB in horizontally (looking down on it) and the guts vertically. The fixture I did (and the factory tooling type) allows you to rotate in all orientations and makes life much easier...
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| − | ::::Glad you took the intent of what I was conveying above, and not necessarily the wording; while I work I have to type fast when I can before being harassed, LOL!
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| − | ::::Will get some pics uploaded and posted of it in use; I completely understand your concerns...
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| − | ::::BTW, if you prefer, email works well for me as well; caneighbors@hotmail.com. I've been active on a number of boards, but for some odd reason my feeble brain has a hard time with the html/code thing here (need a cheatsheet for the syntax, LOL!). Take care! Will get better pics posted soon (what do I do, upload to the text above, or where do I find the original code to insert?) BTW, I get an error message every time I save an edit; back up, submit again, and it takes; odd.--[[User:Neighbors|Neighbors]] 15:31, 31 August 2012 (MDT)
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| − | :::::To upload images, click on 'Upload file' (located in the toolbar on the left side of the page under 'toolbox'). Use the instructions at the top of the 'Upload file' page to enter the image into a page/article. [http://www.crankshaftcoalition.com/wiki/Help:Editing '''Help editing'''] has info under 'Advanced editing/Images' that will help w/the image formatting. If you have any questions just ask and I'll help if I can.
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| − | :::::The software got updated when the new owners took over the forum and wiki, unfortunately there are still bugs that need work. The bugs that have been identified are [http://www.crankshaftcoalition.com/wiki/Wiki_updates '''here'''], if you come across any that aren't listed, you can add them.
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| − | :::::Should you want to contact Jon, try using either his [http://www.crankshaftcoalition.com/wiki/User_talk:Jon '''user talk page'''], or contact him at the [http://www.hotrodders.com/forum/members/jon.html '''forum'''].--[[User:Cobalt327|Cobalt327]] 04:55, 1 September 2012 (MDT)
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