1937-1957 Buick Oldsmobile Pontiac suspension upgrade
From Crankshaft Coalition Wiki
(Format images; minor clean up) |
|||
| Line 1: | Line 1: | ||
| − | + | ||
==Overview== | ==Overview== | ||
A suspension and disc brake upgrade on a 1937-'57 Buick, Olds, or Pontiac (BOP) is complicated by many variables and side issues. In addition, there is little information on the topic, and few aftermarket parts are available. | A suspension and disc brake upgrade on a 1937-'57 Buick, Olds, or Pontiac (BOP) is complicated by many variables and side issues. In addition, there is little information on the topic, and few aftermarket parts are available. | ||
| Line 9: | Line 9: | ||
*The coils sit in a spring pocket on the lower control arm, and a spring perch built into the frame on the upper end. | *The coils sit in a spring pocket on the lower control arm, and a spring perch built into the frame on the upper end. | ||
*Steering is thru a kingpin steering knuckle. Alignment is accomplished with an inner and outer concentric screw adjustment in the upper steering knuckle mount (accessible by removing the grease fitting and inserting an allen wrench into the hole). | *Steering is thru a kingpin steering knuckle. Alignment is accomplished with an inner and outer concentric screw adjustment in the upper steering knuckle mount (accessible by removing the grease fitting and inserting an allen wrench into the hole). | ||
| − | *There are two types of shock arrangements. Roughly, ' | + | *There are two types of shock arrangements. Roughly, '37–'49 (not all 3 changed the same year) have a lever action shock that is built into the upper control arm and serves as the upper control arm mount. 1950s models went to a separate tube type shock. Some were internal to the spring, some external. The upper control arm is still a fixed frame mount, with caster/camber adjustment in the concentric sleeves. |
==Key shortcomings of the original suspension== | ==Key shortcomings of the original suspension== | ||
| Line 42: | Line 42: | ||
Postwar, they were 2-1/4" by 12”, with 1-1/8” wheel cylinders. The most basic upgrade would be to the later, larger, components. Control arms and spindles are unchanged for 20 years, so this is a basic bolt on. Even the shop manuals refer to this upgrade. | Postwar, they were 2-1/4" by 12”, with 1-1/8” wheel cylinders. The most basic upgrade would be to the later, larger, components. Control arms and spindles are unchanged for 20 years, so this is a basic bolt on. Even the shop manuals refer to this upgrade. | ||
| − | The single reservoir master cylinder is located under the floor and bolted to the frame. A new split system | + | The single reservoir master cylinder is located under the floor and bolted to the frame. A new split system master cylinder and power [[booster]] will be an amazing transformation of your stopping ability. Several aftermarket master cylinders and 7” boosters (with universal pedal mounts) are available. With a V8 engine swap, a 7” booster seems to be the most you can squeeze under the hood. |
The Geo Metro hanging pedal and 7 inch booster is one option, but the MC (master cylinder) is small. Didn't chase down a match, but the center hole and bolt pattern appear to be typical GM. Be sure to get one designed for a booster application, and pay attention to the pushrod length. | The Geo Metro hanging pedal and 7 inch booster is one option, but the MC (master cylinder) is small. Didn't chase down a match, but the center hole and bolt pattern appear to be typical GM. Be sure to get one designed for a booster application, and pay attention to the pushrod length. | ||
| Line 51: | Line 51: | ||
If you elect to do a power-only upgrade, and keep 4-wheel drums, be aware most master cylinders are designed for a disc/drum setup, and you will have to add 10 psi residual valves to the front lines. | If you elect to do a power-only upgrade, and keep 4-wheel drums, be aware most master cylinders are designed for a disc/drum setup, and you will have to add 10 psi residual valves to the front lines. | ||
| − | *The front drums and hubs come together, at about $130 each | + | *The front drums and hubs come together, at about $130 each |
| − | *Wheel cylinders are $32 each | + | *Wheel cylinders are $32 each |
| − | *Shoes are $25 plus cores | + | *Shoes are $25 plus cores |
| − | *Hardware is $15, flex hoses are $25 each | + | *Hardware is $15, flex hoses are $25 each |
| − | *The above mentioned wheel bearings are $200 | + | *The above mentioned wheel bearings are $200 |
| − | So, a complete brake job will run around $600 just for the | + | So, a complete brake job will run around $600 just for the two front wheels, without the master cylinder or booster. |
===Disc brake upgrade=== | ===Disc brake upgrade=== | ||
| Line 63: | Line 63: | ||
*[http://www.scarebird.com/6928.html Scarebird Classic Brakes] makes a setup for many General Motors makes and models. They supply the brackets for the calipers and the correct spacers for the spindles/rotors, and a tech list of parts to finish the job, for $100-$150, depending on application. For example, for a '58 Pontiac, they supply the brackets and spacers. From any source, new or used, you need a pair of '77 Bonneville 12-inch hubs/rotors, a pair of '88-'91 GM truck calipers, and 2 choices of flex hoses, depending on whether you want them 12 or 15 inches long. | *[http://www.scarebird.com/6928.html Scarebird Classic Brakes] makes a setup for many General Motors makes and models. They supply the brackets for the calipers and the correct spacers for the spindles/rotors, and a tech list of parts to finish the job, for $100-$150, depending on application. For example, for a '58 Pontiac, they supply the brackets and spacers. From any source, new or used, you need a pair of '77 Bonneville 12-inch hubs/rotors, a pair of '88-'91 GM truck calipers, and 2 choices of flex hoses, depending on whether you want them 12 or 15 inches long. | ||
| − | * | + | *[http://classicperform.com Classic Performance Parts] sells a tapered bearing conversion kit. |
If you are using all new parts, you can have disc brakes cheaper than rebuilding the original drum setup. | If you are using all new parts, you can have disc brakes cheaper than rebuilding the original drum setup. | ||
| Line 84: | Line 84: | ||
The upgrade discussed in the article will work on all 1937-'57 BOPs, because they all have the same basic setup. The '58 Pontiac lower control arms are the key. They are a direct bolt in, exactly the same as the originals, but with ball joints instead of king pins. '59 and later BOPs went to a completely different control arm mount. '58 Buick lower control arms are not symmetrical, so they won’t work. | The upgrade discussed in the article will work on all 1937-'57 BOPs, because they all have the same basic setup. The '58 Pontiac lower control arms are the key. They are a direct bolt in, exactly the same as the originals, but with ball joints instead of king pins. '59 and later BOPs went to a completely different control arm mount. '58 Buick lower control arms are not symmetrical, so they won’t work. | ||
| − | New info indicates the | + | New info indicates the '41 Buick lower control arm is 20 inches long, rather than 18 inches like the Pont/Olds. Other measurements are the same, so upgrade should still work, with redrilled mounting holes. |
| − | Also, we do not have a '58 Olds available to check/measure the lower control arms. What we DO know is '57 is king pin, and '59 is all-new. So | + | Also, we do not have a '58 Olds available to check/measure the lower control arms. What we DO know is '57 is king pin, and '59 is all-new. So '58 is it. We used the '58 Pontiac upper control arms simply because we got the whole front end. Several uppers will work, as it looks like '58 to '60 BOPs all had the same basic dimensions on their upper control arms. In fact, the '58 Buick uppers we used on one conversion had some built-in twist that allowed us to add more anti-dive than we could get with the Pontiac uppers. |
| + | |||
| + | Updated addition- 1958 Olds lower arms are not symmetrical, and like Buick will not work. | ||
As you can see in the photos, the '58 control arms are more substantial than the '41. However, all the dimensions are the same. | As you can see in the photos, the '58 control arms are more substantial than the '41. However, all the dimensions are the same. | ||
| Line 93: | Line 95: | ||
| − | The upper control arm mount is a fairly simple fabrication. If you have a post '50s car, the upper mount will differ from this article. The pre- | + | The upper control arm mount is a fairly simple fabrication. If you have a post '50s car, the upper mount will differ from this article. The pre-'50s had the lever action shock, therefore no upper shock mount. On both of our tested conversions ('41 Pontiac and '49 Olds) we fabricated the mounts out of angle iron. We used 1/4" 3x3 inch angle iron on the Pontiac, and added two gussets. On the Olds, we had some 3/8" 4x6 inch angle iron, so only added one gusset. |
[[image:49_olds_upper_mount_1.jpg|thumb|left|400px|'49 Olds]] <br style="clear:both"/> | [[image:49_olds_upper_mount_1.jpg|thumb|left|400px|'49 Olds]] <br style="clear:both"/> | ||
| Line 110: | Line 112: | ||
| − | For spindles, the '63 Pontiac spindles advised in the article were used. Unfortunately, when it was set it on the ground, the front ride height was too high. This led to a search for dropped spindles. For BOP, dropped spindles couldn't be found | + | For spindles, the '63 Pontiac spindles advised in the article were used. |
| + | The '63 Pontiac spindle has a deep 90 degree bend at the bottom, to clear the wide corners on the lower control arm. (The '60s stock Chevy spindle has a 45 degree angle at that location, so Chevy Spindles won't work.) Unfortunately, when it was set it on the ground, the front ride height was too high. This led to a search for dropped spindles. | ||
| + | For BOP, dropped spindles couldn't be found but Chevy drop spindles are readily available. | ||
| + | Note the side by side comparisons in the picture. | ||
{| | {| | ||
|[[image:63_pontiac_65_chevy_spindle_2.jpg|thumb|center|400px|Pontiac (bottom) vs. Chevy spindle shape]] | |[[image:63_pontiac_65_chevy_spindle_2.jpg|thumb|center|400px|Pontiac (bottom) vs. Chevy spindle shape]] | ||
| Line 117: | Line 122: | ||
|} | |} | ||
| + | The spindle on the left, shown above is the '65-'70 Chevy drop spindle from Classic Performance Products. It's their own in-house design and is very close to the design of a Pontiac spindle. | ||
| − | + | ||
| + | The ears had to be trimmed off the front side of the lower A-frame, but that was a minor modification. | ||
| − | [[image:IMGP0005.JPG|thumb| | + | [[image:IMGP0005.JPG|thumb|left|400px|Trimmed lower control arm]] <br style="clear:both"/> |
| Line 127: | Line 134: | ||
CPP's dropped spindle is available alone, or in a disc brake kit. Be sure you get the p/n CP30101 spindle. It has no steering arms built in. | CPP's dropped spindle is available alone, or in a disc brake kit. Be sure you get the p/n CP30101 spindle. It has no steering arms built in. | ||
| − | Stock spindles are front steer, and won’t work. With the CP30101, you can just add a pair of '65-'70 stock arms. Flipped over, they fit your rear steer perfectly-even the taper is the right direction. Unlike the | + | On the Pontiac spindles, the distance between the mounting holes of the steering arms is different from the Chevy's ones, so you have to use Chevy steering arms on the CPP spindles. |
| + | |||
| + | Stock spindles are front steer, and won’t work. With the CP30101, you can just add a pair of '65-'70 Chevy stock arms. Flipped over, they fit your rear steer perfectly-even the taper is the right direction. Unlike the '63 Pontiac arm in the article, the Chevy arms are pretty straight. | ||
For this project, the tie rods only needed to be shortened less than an inch, rather than the 3 inches in the article. This was done by trimming a little off both the inner and outer tie rod threads and the sleeve. No cutting and welding. | For this project, the tie rods only needed to be shortened less than an inch, rather than the 3 inches in the article. This was done by trimming a little off both the inner and outer tie rod threads and the sleeve. No cutting and welding. | ||
| Line 138: | Line 147: | ||
Note: Later a power rack and pinion was added, and the steering arms were changed out. However, the Pontiac arms will work fine on a Saginaw 605 power box upgrade. | Note: Later a power rack and pinion was added, and the steering arms were changed out. However, the Pontiac arms will work fine on a Saginaw 605 power box upgrade. | ||
| + | great stuff but this will only work on 37 to39 cars after you drill new mounting holes for the lower a arms .the 58 arms are 2ins.shorter then the early cars just make sure you line up the spring pocket in the arm with the one in the frame every thing else works.the better set up is to use there ccp spindles and brake kit worth the money | ||
==Springs== | ==Springs== | ||
| − | The stock springs should work fine. As the Rodder's Digest article suggested, you will need to spread the bottom of the spring a bit, because the '58 Pontiac spring pocket is about | + | The stock springs should work fine. As the Rodder's Digest article suggested, you will need to spread the bottom of the spring a bit, because the '58 Pontiac spring pocket is about 1/4" larger than previous years. This car required a spring rate of approximately 300 pounds per inch, with a ride height of 9.5 inches, and a free height of 15 inches. '69 Mercury Cougar springs were used. They were listed at 295 pounds per inch, 10.5" ride height and 17 inches free height. Once a full coil was cut off, everything fell into place. They were also 3.88 inches in diameter, or halfway between the original upper pocket and the '58 lower pocket. |
==Shocks== | ==Shocks== | ||
| − | Shocks will be a problem on the pre- | + | Shocks will be a problem on the pre-'50s, without a shock tower. Note in the picture of the frame spring pocket area below: 3 holes in a row. The outer 2 are the original mounting holes for the lever action shock. The one in the middle is drilled at the dead center of the spring pocket, later enlarged to fit the shock bushing. |
| + | |||
| + | [[image:Mocked_mount_top_view.jpg|thumb|left|400px|Top view of mocked up mount]] <br style="clear:both"/> | ||
| − | |||
This project used a pair of shocks from a '79 Dodge Diplomat, with the stem mount on both ends. These are easy to mount through that frame hole. The lower mount had to be fabricated. (Even though the lower Control arms had shock mounts, there were no shocks short enough that fit that mount). With level control arms the ride height on the car was 9.5 inches. That meant a shock collapsed height of about 7 1/2 inches. The Dodge shocks were not only the right ride height, they were designed for a similar weight car. | This project used a pair of shocks from a '79 Dodge Diplomat, with the stem mount on both ends. These are easy to mount through that frame hole. The lower mount had to be fabricated. (Even though the lower Control arms had shock mounts, there were no shocks short enough that fit that mount). With level control arms the ride height on the car was 9.5 inches. That meant a shock collapsed height of about 7 1/2 inches. The Dodge shocks were not only the right ride height, they were designed for a similar weight car. | ||
| − | Note: The | + | Note: The '58 Buick has an external shock mount, riveted to the frame. You could get a set of those, or fabricate some, and have many more shock options than you would with the shocks mounted inside the spring. |
==Additional suspension option== | ==Additional suspension option== | ||
For the more adventuresome, and fabrication minded, there is another approach. | For the more adventuresome, and fabrication minded, there is another approach. | ||
| − | The only real issue with the stock lower control arms is the king pin mounts. My buddy with the | + | The only real issue with the stock lower control arms is the king pin mounts. My buddy with the '49 Olds has a junkyard, but no '58 Pontiacs. He didn't want to wait for one to come in, so we cut the outer end from his lower control arms and welded on a 3/8" plate for a ball joint mount. He did have a '58 Buick, so those were the uppers we used. He had already pulled a complete spindle/disc brake setup off an early 70s Chevy, so we knew going in that the 45 degree angle on the spindle was going to be a problem. As it turns out, the narrower end on the original lower control arms is a blessing. A Chevy spindle can be made to work, but the Ford Courier had a ball joint with a 3-point “crowsfoot” design -- it is very narrow at the outer end, and the Chevy spindle cleared with no problems. There must be several ball joint mounts that could be adapted to the original arms. Just remember, the ball joints point down. |
| − | [[image:49_olds_lower_with_for_ball_joint.jpg| | + | [[image:49_olds_lower_with_for_ball_joint.jpg|thumb|left|450px|Ford Courier ball joint mounted on a '49 Olds lower control arm]] <br style="clear:both"/> |
We used his original springs, but don’t have it finished yet, so we may do some adjusting to the ride height when all is said and done. If you use a disc brake kit with the caliper to the front, you will probably have an issue with the sway bar. | We used his original springs, but don’t have it finished yet, so we may do some adjusting to the ride height when all is said and done. If you use a disc brake kit with the caliper to the front, you will probably have an issue with the sway bar. | ||
==Sway bar== | ==Sway bar== | ||
| − | The | + | The '40s cars had very small sway bars- 5/8 inch. In this project, a 3/4 inch 1956 Buick sway bar could be bolted in without modification. |
| − | 1958 | + | A 1958-1964 Chevrolet Impala sway bar is almost a direct bolt on. Several sizes of sway bars are available. |
==Steering Linkage== | ==Steering Linkage== | ||
| Line 169: | Line 180: | ||
[[Category:Suspension]] | [[Category:Suspension]] | ||
| − | |||
Your Privacy Choices