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| − | LIZARD SKIN ALTERNATIVE COATING
| + | Moved: [[Ceramic insulation]]. |
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| − | This article originally was started in Hot Rodders.com by 302 Z28 in December of 2006. The article was added to over the last couple of years by a host of authors from the HR.com Bulletin Board. This Wiki is just an accumulation of those postings that will help guide those interested parties through the highlites of it. In order to get the most out of this Wiki, we suggest that you read the 12+ pages on Hot Rodders.com at this address: http://www.hotrodders.com/forum/alternative-lizard-skin-103610.html
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| − | The Original Post
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| − | alternative to Lizard Skin
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| − | Since RB's Obsolete had the Cool-Car ceramic insulation on backorder and did not inform me after 3 weeks of waiting on it I have done some research. Seems all the high priced ceramic paint on insulating materials aka Lizard Skin, Cool-Car and such are a simple mixture of an exterior latex paint with ceramic micro spheres added to it. Having been a radio control aircraft enthusiast I have used ceramic spheres mixed with epoxy to form various fillets on model aircraft. I would buy these ceramic spheres (Micro Balloons is what they are called) in bulk from either Aircraft Spruce or Wicks Aircraft Supply. A gallon bag of the spheres cost about $6.00. You can see the potential cost savings here. A one gallon pail of exterior latex house paint, add some Micro Balloons to it and you basically have the same thing as Lizard Skin or Cool-Car for a mere fraction of the price. A 2 gallon pail of Lizard Skin is about $160
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| − | Vince
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| − | Which resulted in these subsequent posts……
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| − | Now with the Lizard Skin: At the Louisville NSRA Nationals I saw a demo of Lizard Skin. When I saw it it looked like thickly applied paint. It did not have a smooth surface, it actually looked like well...like Lizard Skin. Hence the name I assume. In order to get it sprayed with enough film build it is going to have to be applied thick. The Lizard Skin guy said it could be applied either on the outside of the bottom or on the inside. Since the bottom of my 34 is painted I will be applying my mixture to the entire inside floor. roof, trunk, doors, and firewall. The instruction for applying Lizard Skin were no different than what you would see for applying any kind of paint. Free of dirt, debris, oil and grease. I saw the gun he was selling and it was nothing more than a under coating gun, but with a smaller tip. The tip was about 1/4" compared to the 3/8" of an under coat gun. It was a suction feed gun that has a tube you put down into the material. Personally I would not want it on the outside of my car because of how it looks. On the inside ever thing is going to be covered by upholstery so it will not be seen. I have the utmost confidence that the exterior latex will adhere extremely well to the underside of the roof and will hold up very well also.
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| − | I have been getting my Micro Balloons from Wicks Aircraft Supply . They have a nice online catalog, just look under composites.
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| − | This is my bag of Micro Balloons, it is not quite a gallon any longer. You have to be careful with this stuff as it is microscopic phenolic glass spheres and they are very light. It pours a lot like a liquid and unlike a powder. It will not clump as a powder will. It floats on the slightest breeze, so wear a dust mask when using them. I have not seen an MSDS sheet on it, but I would not want to find out what it could do to your lungs.
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| − | am mixing up some Micro Balloons and a gallon of exterior latex house paint. I had the house paint tinted a very dark gray. I had to pour out almost half of the paint in order to add the Micro Balloons. It took the entire bag to get to the consistency I was looking for. You want it thin enough to spray with a large nozzle, but thick enough so that it does not sag on vertical surfaces as you build it up. As stated earlier the bag was not quite a full gallon as I had used some. I feel confident that a full one gallon bag of Micro Balloons and about 3/4 gallon of paint is just about right.
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| − | Edited note: Do not be temped to use a power mixer as it will shatter the micro spheres and diminish the insulating qualities.
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| − | FWIW
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| − | Some have expressed that maybe Lizard Skin is some magical formula specifically made for automotive use that justifies it's exorbitant price. People will believe what they want to believe and that is fine. For those that need a little more assurance that there is nothing magical about these hi tech ceramic coatings you can go online to Hy-Tech Thermal Solutions and look up product SC#1000. SC#1000 is 80% by volume microscopic glass spheres.
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| − | Hy-Tech Thermal Solutions is a NASA spin off company located in Melbourne Fla. SC#1000 is available for about $39 a gallon.
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| − | Vince
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| − | Your welcome. $11? Make up your own mind, at 80% by volume per gallon you can buy two one gallon bags from Wicks, and one gallon of latex paint. Pour all of the paint into another can except 20%, then fill that with the glass spheres. Mix up another gallon and still have some latex left over. Or order two gallons from Hy-Tech at $39 a gallon pre mixed and ready to spray.
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| − | Thanks guys, just out of curiosity I ordered two gallons of SC#1000 from Hy-Tech. They came in last evening. The mix looks a little different than what I mixed up but that is to be expected as I did not know how much Micro Balloons to add to the paint. This mix is like a paste more than anything. If you stick a paint stick into it and pull it out you will leave a little mountain that stays there. The instructions that came with it says you can spray it with an airless sprayer as long as the tip size is 3.0mm. This stuff is very light weight as you would expect at 80% Micro Balloons. The only downside that I can see is that it is only available in white. I don't see why it can't be tinted though. I have not been able to spray any insulation yet as the temp has been below 50 for about a week.
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| − | Jason
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| − | I do not think anyone was saying anything negative about Lizard Skin other than it's price. It is a great product, there is no doubt about that and it is considerably cheaper than other methods of insulation. However there is nothing mysterious or magical about it's composition. Ceramic insulation has been in the industrial arena for going on ten years now. There are numbers of insulation specific companies that offer comparable products at a considerable price savings. Being in the chemical industry with access to engineering data relating to protective coatings, it was not to difficult to do some research on ceramic insulation. Once I found out what it is I was amazed at the brilliantly simple formula and how inexpensive it is to duplicate. My suggestion was just that, a suggestion, a person can make up their own mind about what they wish to do.
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| − | Thanks for the information
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| − | Vince
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| − | Originally Posted by bnewsom
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| − | What would happen if the micro spheres were mixed in with an elastomeric coating such as Cool Seal? Cool seal is a mobile home coating that waterproofs and insulates. Obviously it will stand up to varying conditions.
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| − | Bob
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| − | I also have a gallon of Kool-Seal that I bought locally for about $20. I thought it may be the same thing, but as you have discovered it does not have micro spheres. However it does sound like it would be perfect for our use if they were added. I would add 80% by volume to the Kool-Seal.
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| − | Vince
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| − | So this thread took hold, others experimented too….
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| − | I just received the "Two Gallon Kit" (just the microspheres - not the coating) that I ordered from Hy-Tech.
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| − | The directions and accompanying brochure describe them as basically inert ceramic microspheres that; "Works with ANY paint".
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| − | The directions say to mix them with the paint @ a 1:4 volume ratio (1 part microspheres to 4 parts paint).
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| − | Application by roller: 1/2" to 3/4" nap depending on surface texture.
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| − | Spraying: Remove all filters (DUH!) and use a .019 to .024 tip or larger depending on viscosity of paint. Add up to 1 pint water (I assume that you could use other appropriate reducers if not using latex) or their HY-TECH ACRI-FLOW to help the paint flow better. I am willing to bet that this is similar (if not the same) as the stuff (FlowEz or something like that) that I added to the latex when I last painted my house trim.
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| − | I was/am planning to experiment a little with small samples of different types of paint (latex, oil, urethane, etc.), other carriers (Kool Seal, POR High Temp., Herculiner, etc.) and means of application (brush, roller, pneumatic and airless sprayer, etc.) on various surfaces (fiberglass, sheet metal, exhaust pipe, etc.). Only problem is that I am going to be laid up for the next couple(?) of months due to double knee replacement surgery. . I will be monitoring the thread to see if anyone has any feedback that will preclude my duplicating something that someone else has done or is planning to do sooner.
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| − | I will be glad to answer any questions that I can re the information (lot of specs) contained in the directions and brochure.
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| − | texastomeh
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| − | The Hy-Tech site also offers suggestions as to how to spray it. I've used an airless sprayer rented from Home Depot with all the screens/filters removed (don't forget the one in the handle) and using the biggest tip available (you'll probably have to go to a paint store for that, but check the sprayer manufacturer's web site for tip sizes - my local store counter guy had no idea that the biggest size was even available until I told him).
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| − | they also make a nice spray for interior wall sound deadening and one for thermal insulation that dropped the temp in my attic 12 degrees in the summer.
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| − | Hoyt
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| − | The Directions for Use that were enclosed with the Hy-Tech microspheres state:
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| − | The additive should be gradually stirred into the appropriate size container of paint.
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| − | One Pre-measured 1 gallon package of Ceramic Additive for one gallon of paint or a a Pre-measured 5 gallon package of Ceramic Additive for a 5 gallon pail of paint. (Mixing ratio is 4 parts paint to 1 part Ceramic Additive)
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| − | If you purchased a bulk contractor package, simply measure out a 1 qt. container (32 oz. vol.) or use a kitchen measuring cup (4 cups = 1QT of Additive for each gallon of pain).
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| − | efforts, observations, results
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| − | Efforts and some results
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| − | Effort: I purchased 2 one gallon bags of micro balloons fro Wicks Aircraft Supply at a cost of $13 with out shipping. Mixed one bag into a little over a quart of white Glidden semi gloss left over latex paint. This is dusty stuff so I wore a chemical mask and eye protection. I mixed the whole works by hand and got about 7/8ths gallon of material. Mixture was about as thick as thick pancake batter. I applied this mixture to the inside firewall and cowl of my 53 F-100 using a 2.5 inch nylon brush. I also applied the material the inside back wall of the cab below the rear window. I applied 3 coats to the firewall/cowl area and 2 coats to the rear cab wall. I tried to apply these coats as thick as possible allowing an hour between coats. My goal was to have the dried material as thick as a credit card. I estimate the total area covered to be about 30 sq ft and I used about 2/3s of my material. I then allowed 2 days for the material to set.
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| − | Some results and observations: There was no gloss to the dried material and it will scratch with a sharp object. I don’t think I would use it on the outside of the cab. I don’t know if it felt like petting a lizard not having an occasion to do so; however it looked like flat wall paint and definitely had more texture. We had a warm sunny day here in South Texas before Christmas, around 80 degrees, and I rolled the cab into the sun with the outside of the firewall facing the sun. After a half hour or so the outside of the firewall became hot enough that it was not comfortable leaving my hand on the outside metal. The outside of the firewall is painted with two coats of epoxy primer. Inside the firewall I could place my hand anywhere without any discomfort. It was warm but definitely not hot. I do not have a point and shoot thermometer but my Craftsman 82400 multi meter has a temperature probe which I used on both sides of the firewall. I recorded a temperature of 124 F on the outside of the firewall and 102 F on the inside at the same place. The inside back wall of the cab was also in the sun and remained cool to the touch. It did not seem to absorb any more heat than the ambient temperature. Both sides of the rear cab wall felt about the same.
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| − | I have now mixed my second batch. I bought a quart of exterior latex paint from Lowe’s mistake shelf for $1. The color was an off white a little on the beige side. This mixture came out as very dry peanut butter. Dryer than the kind you have to mix before eating. I was able to roll this mixture on the inside roof after the addition of about a pint of left over white ceiling paint. I had applied 2 coats of the remainder of the first mixture to the inside roof so that made the 3rd coat. I will add one more coat to the roof and then use the rest of the mixture on the floor. I still plan to use my Quiet Ride kit inside the cab but I believe the latex micro balloon coating to be a definite bonus. One further observation: the hollow, ringing sound when the cab wall was thumped is now changed to a dull thunk, definitely less vibration. All in all for the price and the effort, I am pleased.
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| − | Heartbeat
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| − | I sprayed my 68 camaro with a mixture of the microspheres from Wick's Aircraft supply and the Kool-Seal elastomeric roof coating as the binder.
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| − | Used a regular undercoating gun to spray and it did fine, although it made the usual "mess" that these guns do. Oh well. water cleanup is nice. I can't really say what the concentration was - I mixed until I "liked" it. Did have to add a good bit of water to thin the roof coating enough so that it would mix. Those microspheres are cool! Look like powder, pour and stir like liquid.
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| − | I sprayed the inside of the door skins and it made a big difference in panel resonance. Big difference.
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| − | As far as heat goes, I sprayed the back half of the car (rear seat pan and back, inside rear quarters, etc.) and I can still feel a little heat coming through when I touch with my hand, so it's not a end all for heat control (nothing is I suppose). I would still plan on putting some of the insulation down in area that will see the most heat, just for good measure if anything.
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| − | The whole car did quiet down a good bit, but I also dampened a lot of the panels with the Peel & Seal product from Lowe's (which I think IS a great alternative to Dynamat, although it may not work quite as well, dunno - but you can't beat the price and it installs easily - use your heat gun.). Hard to say how much exactly the microspheres and elastomeric contributed to noise loss, but I think it's part of the whole solution anyway.
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| − | I will say the car is much more fun to drive now that I can hear whomever may be in the passenger seating - or the guy next to me saying 1 , 2, 3, go!
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| − | Not that I would know anything about that.
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| − | Bottom line: for the money you can't beat it. If you don't want to spring for Lizard Skin and are willing to tinker a bit yourself, this would be a good alternative. Hey, why not? Stuff is lightweight as heck, so there's not really a penalty that I can think of. The only thing would be that perhaps you need to spray it on an already primer or painted surface. Don't know if I would trust the coating to stick to bare steel or not. Anyone else care to comment on that?
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| − | Originally Posted by 327amc
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| − | This is awesome. Thanks for all the great info and research.
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| − | Now my question,
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| − | I have about 10 kilo's of Glass microsperes laying around i ordered from Engelhard a couple years ago. But i have 4 different sizes.
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| − | 4micron, 10mic, 38mic, and 50mic.
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| − | What size would be best to use? Obviously, the 50mic is too big. Its nearly the size in roadsigns, and road paint. Which, i also have a 50lb bad of the glass spheres that are used in road paint aswell. They are about 200mic i believe.?
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| − | Im going to mix mine into SPI epoxy, for sound deadening purposes.
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| − | The ones to use are finer than talcum powder. I do not know the size, but you can go online to Wicks Aircraft Supply and look them up and I believe they tell you the size.
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| − | Glad you guys are finding this thread valuable.
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| − | So I went ahead and did this on my '38 Dodge - I'm way overdue on my project update.
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| − | After stripping the floor clean, I coated the steel floor with a brushed coat of POR15 I had left over from another project.
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| − | After drying a day or two, I seam sealed all the seams in the floor and firewall areas with an automotive seam and joint sealer.
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| − | I let this set up another day or two and then sprayed the alchohol based zinser primer on. The gal at Home Depot tinted the primer and the Henry's elastomeric roofing compound for me (blue).
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| − | I ended up mixing to a ratio of about 2.5 gallons of elastomeric compound (Henry's) to 2 gallons of microspheres. After seeing how thick the mixture was, I decided to roll it on which worked very well. I used a brush for tight spots and a smaller roller where I could fit it inside the doors. I spent several days applying a number of coats - probably about 5 coats which is likely more than required. I have since let the concoction sit a few weeks and I am now beginning to wire the car.
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| − | The result is a tough, almost bedliner type of coating that has taken the "ring" out of the car when you tap on the steel. My '38 Dodge is all steel. I even coated the inside of the roof, doors, etc... Basically, anywhere I could fit the roller or a brush I applied the material and the amount I mixed was enough for any medium to large interior. I will probably half the recipe for my other project (a '69 vette coupe).
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| − | I still plan to use additional insulation (peel and stick) and expect the ride to be cool and quiet (except for my exhaust).
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| − | I'll estimate the total cost for the project at about $125 which included an extra 5 gal. bucket, rollers/frames, a cheap brush, 2 tubes of seam sealer, 1 quart of Zinser (alchohol based), 2 gallons of microsheres from Wickes and 5 gal. of Henry Elastomeric roof sealer. I only used half of the Henry's, so I have some material left over for the next project.
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| − | Here are some pics:
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| − | [[Image:DSC03501-1.jpg]]
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| − | [[Image:DSC03503.jpg]]
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| − | [[Image:DSC03527.jpg]]
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| − | [[Image:DSC03528.jpg]]
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| − | Hi,first understand that im not a scientist or engineer,i took the doors off of my 48 ford coupe,cleaned inside of doors with 80 grit,by hand,sprayed phosphoric acid into doors.(2 times)mixed baking soda,and washed inside of doors good. let dry in sun.put 2 coats of 2k primer in doors. i had 3 gallons of kool seal,,water soluble, (left over from roof job) i mixed 1 1/2 lbs of micro baloons into it. (aircraft spruce and speciality co) was about as thick as pancake batter. i sprayed 3 coats inside of doors(2 hrs between coats) using undercoat gun (ebay $15.00) after letting 3rd coat dry (in the sun) for 1 day. i added a special bubble wrap,used in custom vans,(i dont remember the name) sprayed door and wrap 2 times with trim adhesive,(very hard to get in doors without sticking to itself.(take your time)put doors in direct sun. i have a non contact infra red thermometer (NAPA),, on the outside of door (gray primer) temp was 145 degrees. inside temp was 95 degrees. thats a 50 degree drop.i did this test probably 10 times with same results.i could not believe it myself...one question i have,can i spray this mixture over bedcoat material???( the inside of coupe is sprayed very good)
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| − | Vince:
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| − | I ended up mixing 2 gallon bags of micro ballons to the 1 gallon of elastometric roof coating, along with just a touch of water to get it uniform. I may have added just a touch to much water as I could pour the mixture out of the 5 gallon bucket I mixed it in.? Not sure.
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| − | I applied all coats with a 4" brush. I have the car up on jack stands so I put a dual halogen construction light underneath where the mufflers would be about 12" below the floor pan. Basically right under where the rear seat would sit. After the first coat dried I turned the light on and recorded the inside and bottom temperature at 10, 20 and 30 minutes. The results were consistent at each point. I checked them with a laser temp gun from Sears. The inside temperature was only 5 degrees cooler than the bottom? So I'm not sure if my method of testing is a fair one? I have since applied another 3-4 coats, for a total of 5-6 coats, lost count. I plan on checking it once more before installing the carpet. If anyone has a better method to check the real difference let me know and I'll give it a shot.
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| − | Thanks,
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| − | Chad
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| − | Experimentation is the Mother of Invention….
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| − | I never tried mixing the micro balloons in with elastomeric roof coating which already has some ingrediants in it. I don't know what if anything that would cause in the way of a heat barrier. I would't think it would affect it negatively. What were the temps you were recording?
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| − | Vince
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| − | Final Temps after 5-6 Coats
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| − | Well I checked it last night.
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| − | The results after 5-6 coats:
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| − | At 10 minutes: 125 inside, 135 on the bottom
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| − | At 20 minutes: 133 inside, 143 on the bottom
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| − | At 30 mintues: 135 inside, 145 on the bottom
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| − | The results after 1 coat:
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| − | At 10 minutes: 117 inside, 120 on the bottom
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| − | At 20 minutes: 120 inside, 125 on the bottom
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| − | At 30 mintues: 123 inside, 127 on the bottom
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| − | The results with no coating:
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| − | At 10 minutes: 105 inside, 118 on the bottom
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| − | At 20 minutes: 122 inside, 128 on the bottom
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| − | At 30 mintues: 127 inside, 128 on the bottom
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| − | I have never read 12 pages of any post on here before this one. Bravo, these sort of homegrown ideas are just the sort of thing keeps low budget hotrodders like myself excited about the sport! It's great to know that if I magically ended up with a few extra grand that I could do all these amazing things with off the shelf products, but it's even better to know that with basically pocket change I can get something that is even close, and better yet... i get to make it myself . Very cool, and thank you to everyone who has added to this discussion.
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| − | You know, this whole thing sort of makes you wonder just where the idea for Lizard Skin came from... I'm glad that you, Vince, decided to share this little gem!!!
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| − | Thanks again and know that when it comes interior time I'll be mixing up some "skin" for myself!!!
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| − | '''If you used this product and have a story to tell, you can add it to here.'''
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